Are you certain of going to heaven when you die ?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 17, 2021
34
27
18
#81
The New Earth was never promised to you or me. It is for the Kingdom Gospel Saints


Wow a ton of questions all at once. I cannot answer. Please ask one question at a time.

Lol. Sorry about all the questions, I am trying to understand what your beliefs are.

The most important question in the list is followed by related questions:

Can you clearly explain in detail what the gospel you are trying to share with us is? According to your gospel, how can one obtain salvation? What does the word “gospel” mean according to you? Can you please quote scripture in context of the whole Bible to support the gospel you are sharing with us?
 

Gardenias

Well-known member
Oct 27, 2020
2,281
1,117
113
U.S.A.
#82
Some people just have to be left in the hands of God.
They WILL NOT be corrected nor instructed by the word shouted from the roof tops.
They have been INFECTED by man's theologies and interpretations!

It's a pity that disbelief and stubbornness will be dragging some into an ETERNITY of sepetation from God!
A gulf that then will not be breached " BEHOLD TODAY IS THE DAY OF YOUR SALVATION!
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#83
I have read through the entire thread up to #74. I’ve read everything you have said to this point, and I find it very confusing and concerning.

You keep saying that you are here to share the gospel and that many people are not following the gospel you are sharing. You also insist the gospel you share is the correct gospel.

Can you clearly explain in detail what the gospel you are trying to share with us is? According to your gospel, how can one obtain salvation? What does the word “gospel” mean according to you? Can you please quote scripture in context of the whole Bible to support the gospel you are sharing with us?

Also, on your profile, your spiritual status is “not Christian”. I saw where you said that we are not called to be Christians earlier in the thread. How do you define the term “Christian”? And can you explain in detail why you aren’t a “Christian“? Can you please use scripture to support this as well?


I have a few more questions for you:
1. Are you saved?
2. How are you saved, and by Who?
3. When were you saved, if you are saved?
4. If you aren’t saved, can you explain why you aren’t saved?
5. Do you trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?
6. Do you believe in The Triune God-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
7. Have you read the entire Bible?
8. What is your denomination?
9. Do you study The Bible on a daily basis?


I also want to let you know that if you have any questions or are confused about anything in God’s Word, I am here for you in addition to the family/community of CC. There is nothing wrong with having questions or being confused about God or His Word because as created beings, God is beyond our complete understanding.

There is no shame in admitting that you have misunderstood something or are wrong. When I was a new in Christ, I had already read The Bible a few times over my lifetime, but I began to read The Bible again and I had to devote myself to in-depth study to truly understand the basics of His Word and The Good News. I had many misconceptions and misunderstandings about God and His Word as a new, born-again, Christian. To this day, I continue to read, study, and think deeply about His Word daily. To this day I am still constantly learning new things about God and His Word and new ways to apply Hs Word to my own life.

I would be more than happy to study His Word with you (and anybody else who asks) and to figure out answers to important questions together. I will continue to keep you in my prayers because I truly am concerned about your eternal well-being!
You will never get on the same page.
You are dealing with a hyper pauline.
Only pauls words matter.
He is radical and false.
His doctrine is easily defeated by any babe with a bible because he OMITS and poo poos the parts of the bible that are precious to us.

I sat under that very doctrine.
It is false and heresy.
I know their teachers.
It is despicable and intolerable and has made them legalists big time, like some radical church of christ followers stalking believers and telling them they are not saved.

It is cunning and sick.
 
Dec 17, 2021
34
27
18
#84
You will never get on the same page.
You are dealing with a hyper pauline.
Only pauls words matter.
He is radical and false.
His doctrine is easily defeated by any babe with a bible because he OMITS and poo poos the parts of the bible that are precious to us.

I sat under that very doctrine.
It is false and heresy.
I know their teachers.
It is despicable and intolerable and has made them legalists big time, like some radical church of christ followers stalking believers and telling them they are not saved.

It is cunning and sick.
Thank you for clarifying this for me. I’m new to studying false doctrines, and this one is new to me-the first I’ve heard of it. Now that I know what to call it I can research it. Thanks again so much, I really appreciate it!
 

Gardenias

Well-known member
Oct 27, 2020
2,281
1,117
113
U.S.A.
#85
I have read through the entire thread up to #74. I’ve read everything you have said to this point, and I find it very confusing and concerning.

You keep saying that you are here to share the gospel and that many people are not following the gospel you are sharing. You also insist the gospel you share is the correct gospel.

Can you clearly explain in detail what the gospel you are trying to share with us is? According to your gospel, how can one obtain salvation? What does the word “gospel” mean according to you? Can you please quote scripture in context of the whole Bible to support the gospel you are sharing with us?

Also, on your profile, your spiritual status is “not Christian”. I saw where you said that we are not called to be Christians earlier in the thread. How do you define the term “Christian”? And can you explain in detail why you aren’t a “Christian“? Can you please use scripture to support this as well?


I have a few more questions for you:
1. Are you saved?
2. How are you saved, and by Who?
3. When were you saved, if you are saved?
4. If you aren’t saved, can you explain why you aren’t saved?
5. Do you trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?
6. Do you believe in The Triune God-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
7. Have you read the entire Bible?
8. What is your denomination?
9. Do you study The Bible on a daily basis?


I also want to let you know that if you have any questions or are confused about anything in God’s Word, I am here for you in addition to the family/community of CC. There is nothing wrong with having questions or being confused about God or His Word because as created beings, God is beyond our complete understanding.

There is no shame in admitting that you have misunderstood something or are wrong. When I was a new in Christ, I had already read The Bible a few times over my lifetime, but I began to read The Bible again and I had to devote myself to in-depth study to truly understand the basics of His Word and The Good News. I had many misconceptions and misunderstandings about God and His Word as a new, born-again, Christian. To this day, I continue to read, study, and think deeply about His Word daily. To this day I am still constantly learning new things about God and His Word and new ways to apply Hs Word to my own life.

I would be more than happy to study His Word with you (and anybody else who asks) and to figure out answers to important questions together. I will continue to keep you in my prayers because I truly am concerned about your eternal well-being!



If I'm not mistaken he is a Pauline believer. Paul's " gospel" is the only that is correct according to him and them.

Refusal of the WHOLE WORD is a slippery slope and has not hand rails to hold onto!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#86
Actually, is not our final destination the new earth?
No it is not. Our final destination is the New Jerusalem. All the saints from the time of Abel who have passed on are there right now (Heb 12:22-24). And Christ is preparing a place there for every child of God (John 14:1-3). Our citizenship is in Heaven (Phil 3:20,21) and we look for the Savior who will come at the Resurrection/Rapture to take the children of God to their eternal home. And even Abraham looked for a city which has foundations, whose Builder and Maker is God (Heb 11:10). The New Jerusalem is a cubic city 1500 cubic miles in dimensions, with walls which have 12 foundations (Rev 21). Which means there is more than enough room there for countless mansions.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
#87
It is despicable and intolerable and has made them legalists big time, like [...]
How could that be, since they would be acknowledging Paul having written the following passages (on that Subject):


1) Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


2) Romans 6:15
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


3) Romans 7:1,4
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
[...]
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


4) 1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.


5) Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


6) Galatians 4:21
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?



7) Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law
.



[...] and telling them they are not saved.
...says the guy who insists that 50% of the Church (which is His body), supposedly represented by the "5 foolish virgins," will, in the end, LOSE their salvation that they supposedly had (according to your viewpoint). :cautious::rolleyes:


NOT!





[you know I love you, Abs! ;) ]
 

JTB

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2021
2,260
734
113
#88
No it is not. Our final destination is the New Jerusalem. All the saints from the time of Abel who have passed on are there right now (Heb 12:22-24). And Christ is preparing a place there for every child of God (John 14:1-3). Our citizenship is in Heaven (Phil 3:20,21) and we look for the Savior who will come at the Resurrection/Rapture to take the children of God to their eternal home. And even Abraham looked for a city which has foundations, whose Builder and Maker is God (Heb 11:10). The New Jerusalem is a cubic city 1500 cubic miles in dimensions, with walls which have 12 foundations (Rev 21). Which means there is more than enough room there for countless mansions.
Who is the Bride of Christ.​

In Revelation an angel tells John "this is the bride of Christ". Does John see a church building or group of people? No, he sees the Holy City of New Jerusalem. So on the surface the Bride of Christ is very clearly specified - as the Holy City of New Jerusalem.

But then John sees something else - that there are people who live within New Jerusalem, while there are nations of others who live outside the Holy City. Now remember, this is on the new earth so these are ALL saved people. Yet there is a clear distinction between those who live in the City, and those who live outside of it.

Another distinction is presented by the Tree of Life. The people who live in the City eat from the tree of life, whereas we see that the leaves of the tree are for the nations that surround it.

One thing we see about those who live in the City is that they are God’s servants. Servants can take the form of tradesmen, who are paid a wage and work at will. Or servants can be slaves who are given neither consideration. In Old Testament times, if you had a Hebrew slave you had to offer him his freedom after a period of service. But if you were a good and loving master he might not have wanted to leave. So, you would pierce his ear as a symbol of his becoming your bondslave. In return for his agreeing to be your slave for life, you agreed to care for him and his family for life. Now the Bible talks about both kinds of servants, workers and slaves, but when God speaks about His end-time servants He speaks of His bondslaves, those who when offered freedom have chosen slavery.

The population of New Jerusalem also includes those who "overcome.” Overcome is a fighting term, meaning to gain victory against an adversary in combat. In Jesus’ letters to the churches He commends their good works, rebukes their wrongs, exhorts them to seek a special understanding, and makes a specific promise to "those who overcome.” They are promised to eat from the tree of life; to not be hurt by the second death; and to be given hidden manna and a white stone with a new name on it, unknown to any others but themselves and God. They are also given power over the nations (keeping in mind this is the New Earth). They are also to be given the morning star, to be clothed in white, and to never have their names blotted out from the book of life but confessed before the Father and His angels. They are to be made pillars in the temple of God and to never go out from it, and to have written on them the name of the City of God.

These promises are all identifiable to those described by John of the inhabitants of New Jerusalem. Except for one new promise, that of being given the morning star. Jesus called himself the Morning Star, and promised to give Himself as such to His Bride.

This should start to put together some kind of picture for you. Jesus’ bride is those who have sealed themselves to God as true bondslaves. They will be His Bride and live with Him in the City. Those who served Him as workers will live outside the City in the nations of the saved.

Perhaps His Bride could also be seen by looking at her prefiguration. God will physically dwell on the New Earth in New Jerusalem. On Old Earth (our Earth) God physically dwelt on earth in the Tabernacle and the Temple. The facilities both consisted of a central structure, surrounded by a walled courtyard. One tribe out of the 12 (the Levites) were called apart from the rest to serve inside the tabernacle/temple as God’s priests. The other tribes lived outside, but brought their sacrifices into the tabernacle/temple. This is what John saw with the New Earth and New Jerusalem - the only difference being nations instead of tribes, a city instead of a tent/building, and commerce instead of sacrifice.

Nowhere yet have we seen "the Church” in descriptions of His bride. This is unusual, because the Church is largely accepted as being the Bride of Christ. That connection comes from Ephesians 5:22-33, where Paul talks about husbands loving their wives as Christ loves the Church. In trying to explain what he calls a mystery, Paul quotes Genesis 2:23 where God declares that man and woman will become one flesh. In this setting God has just taken part of Adam’s body (his rib) to create his wife Eve. Paul specifically calls the church the body of Christ; Jesus is called the second Adam. To fit the pattern of Adam would it not follow that a part, and not all, of His body will be taken to create His bride?

In another place (2 Cor. 11) Paul explains further. He says he wishes to present us to the Lord as a chaste virgin. But then he fears that we will corrupt that purity. I think what Paul meant is that the Church, the aggregate body of all who believe in Christ, have been born-again virgin for betrothal to the Lord. But this virginal quality can be corrupted on an individual basis. Those of His people who don’t fall to this corruption and remain virginal will be taken from those who do, to become His bride. The rib from the body.

The Bible also talks about people entering into a wedding feast at Jesus’ coming. But in a Biblical wedding feast, the bride was not invited and did not attend. She was sequestered away someplace being prepared for the wedding night. After the feast, the groom would go to take his bride from that place. An example of this is Jacob’s marriage to Rachel (Gen. 29). If his bride to be had been at the wedding feast, Jacob would have known he was being given Leah instead. So again, there are two groups here… the general populace who feast, and the bride who is sequestered preparing for the groom.

So if a Biblical bride is not at the feast, where does she go? We see in Revelation 12 the prophecy of a woman who flees to a place prepared for her in the wilderness where she is cared for. Hosea 2 talks about the day of the Lord, as God speaks about Israel’s harlotry and His judgment upon her, after which He allures her into the wilderness and speaks comfort to her there. She is given vineyards as in the day she was called up out of Egypt, and she now calls Him Husband, not master. Jesus said that those in Judea should flee to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation. The Judeans were very close and loyal to Him. Again, there’s a repeating theme.

God has made it clear thru that repetition. Among mankind there are two kinds of people - those who accept salvation and those who don't. Then God further divides the saved, into those who are workers and those who are slaves. On the New Earth, those who are slaves will inhabit New Jerusalem as His Bride. Those who are workers will live in the nations of the saved around it.

God will have a pure and chaste bride - those who are committed to be His eternal bondservants. Not all of His Body will be a part of her, but each of us has a chance to be that rib. It all depends on how much we love our Creator, and whether we let our simple dependence upon Him be corrupted.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#89
How could that be, since they would be acknowledging Paul having written the following passages (on that Subject):


1) Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


2) Romans 6:15
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


3) Romans 7:1,4
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
[...]
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


4) 1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.


5) Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


6) Galatians 4:21
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?



7) Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law
.





...says the guy who insists that 50% of the Church (which is His body), supposedly represented by the "5 foolish virgins," will, in the end, LOSE their salvation that they supposedly had (according to your viewpoint). :cautious::rolleyes:


NOT!





[you know I love you, Abs! ;) ]
Huh????
Never thought or said ANY of that.
Misread 100%
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
#90
Huh????
Never thought or said ANY of that.
Misread 100%
I was referring especially to where you'd said:

and has made them legalists big time
... and I'm pointing out how the particular "viewpoint" that you are endeavoring to point out (in your criticism), is decidedly NOT "legalistic [/legalists]" (in the true sense of that term--Perhaps you are simply using that term in a more "personal" way, instead of in the true "biblical sense" of the term itself... because of your viewpoint).
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#91
I was referring especially to where you'd said:



... and I'm pointing out how the particular "viewpoint" that you are endeavoring to point out (in your criticism), is decidedly NOT "legalistic [/legalists]" (in the true sense of that term--Perhaps you are simply using that term in a more "personal" way, instead of in the true "biblical sense" of the term itself... because of your viewpoint).
The greatest example of grace is the 4 gospels.
Hyper paulines exclude the 4 gospels and reframe the very ministry and mission of Jesus.

Of course they become legalists.
It is their payday and they pursue it with passion.

And btw, none of the 10 virgins are unsaved.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#92
Side note;
Hyper paulines aggressively push a SENTENCE....NOT JESUS.
" Do you believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus"?

Well it is never mentioned as a formula that paul acted on on the Damascus road, nor was it the jailers formula, nor mine, in fact i know of NOBODY that got saved in the MIDST of that questionnaire or REVELATION.
NOBODY.

In most EVERY instance Jesus comes IN SALVATION ....IN PERSON.
Not a bible coming floating in with the correct sentences.

If a person has to believe that phrase and it is skipped in the born again moment, where is their doctrine at that moment.

I came to that dbr knowledge after salvation as did paul and the jailer.

That radical insistence of that phrase Before Salvation is legalism and paul himself failed that test with the jailer.

See what happens?
A phrase from the bible becomes bigger than Jesus himself.
Legalism
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
#93
And btw, none of the 10 virgins are unsaved.
And as I am sure you may recall, I disagree with your viewpoint that the "5 foolish virgins" were members of "the Church which is His body" who became "apostate" prior to the Rapture (you've explained it at least similarly to this... using that term, pretty much, about them)





[for the sake of the readers: the "10 [or even 5] virginS" are not whom the "Bridegroom" (Jesus) is coming "TO MARRY" (PLURAL "virginS"--NO!)... rather, they pertain to "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" aka "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age," and their ENTRANCE (or non-entrance) INTO *that* (which commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth--see also Lk12:36-37,38,40 and its parallel--"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347])]
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#94
In Revelation an angel tells John "this is the bride of Christ". Does John see a church building or group of people?
That is not precisely what is said. Here is what is written and it is quite different: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. So the New Jerusalem is personified in that statement, just like Death and Hades are personified in Revelation. Therefore it is a simple matter of recognizing a figure of speech. It would be completely foolish to imagine that a city replaces the people within that city.
 

JTB

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2021
2,260
734
113
#95
. It would be completely foolish to imagine that a city replaces the people within that city.
Go read it again. That's not what I said.
 

JTB

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2021
2,260
734
113
#96
TIt would be completely foolish to imagine that a city replaces the people within that city.
My apologies for the first response, I was just rushing thru and didn't have time to really address your comment.

Yes, you are absolutely right in saying that when God talks about a city, He is referring to it's inhabitants. Jesus exampled that when He wept over Jerusalem; He wasn't mourning the buildings He was loving the people.

My first paragraph does focus on the physical city, the only thing in the entire Bible that is unquestionably identified as the Bride. But everything after that, it all pertains to the people who live within it. Every paragraph but the first.

So if your take-away is that I think the physical city replaces people, I invite you to read it again with the understanding that I most definitely do not.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
#97
The greatest example of grace is the 4 gospels.
Hyper paulines exclude the 4 gospels and reframe the very ministry and mission of Jesus.

Of course they become legalists.
It is their payday and they pursue it with passion.
Somehow I missed this post ^ .

I'm not sure if you're maybe mis-labeling something as (being called, by you): "hyper Pauline"

...and I'm not sure what the OP actually believes, as he is unclear (to me) and not really accurately reflecting what I think *you* are labeling "hyper Pauline" (which I believe is really a MIS-labeling)...

...but who actually believe:

--"the Church which is His body" began on Pentecost [see Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]--from what I've seen of your posts, you do not believe this, instead believing it has existed since the garden of Eden...

... and thus that the Holy Spirit (prior to the point when Jesus was glorified), per what Jesus had said in the CONTEXT surrounding what John 7:39 informs us of (re: Him / Holy Spirit) "was NOT YET given; because that Jesus was NOT YET glorified"...

...so that "the Church which is His body" is [uniquely] permanently INDWELT by the Holy Spirit (and "sealed unto the day of redemption" Eph1:13, 4:30)--whereas you do not seem to believe that the Church (which is His body) did not exist in OT times (tho certainly chosen "IN HIM *before [pro]* the foundation of the world, Eph1:4--not the Calvinistic [inaccurate] form of predestination, btw);


--that "grace" surely was found even in OT times ("Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord" Gen6:8, for example);


--that "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." John 1:17; IOW, they do not deny this, as you are suggesting of the doctrine you are speaking against, if I'm perceiving your overall stance on this subject correctly, from the lengthy time you've referred to it, and not just here in this thread);


--that, (given all of the above) Paul was given by God to disclose and explain the doctrines specifically to/for/about "the Church which is His body" (related also to what 1Cor2:7,8,10a is saying, esp. v.8b... that is, it was necessary for SOME things to have remained "hidden / secret / undisclosed" PRIOR TO the Cross... for the particular reason mentioned here in v.8b);
see also Col1:25 ("...according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to complete the word of God")

--etc...

And btw, none of the 10 virgins are unsaved.
I disagree.

Matt25:12 shows Jesus saying to the 5 foolish virgins, "I know you not"

... the next verse (v.14 rather) starts out with "FOR"... (which connects these sections)... where then v.30 states, "And cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." ALL of the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" passages, as well as the "cast into outer darkness" passages are speaking of the SAME THING (same time-slot, same outcome / consequences / etc), and they are NOT referring to that which "SAVED" ppl are subject to...

...it is *your* "partial-rapture" theory that is governing such an idea (which you continue to express in various ways, which touch also on these issues spelled out here, and in this thread)... but is not biblically accurate. = )
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
#98
...but who actually believe:

--"the Church which is His body" began on Pentecost
[to help clarify]... it is "hyper-dispensationalists" who do not believe this ^ (not the "Pauline-", who DO believe this...)






[whereas "Abs" does not believe the Church which is His body started ANYWHERE in Acts, but rather way back at the time of creation, pretty much... having existed throughout human history since the beginning of time]
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,693
7,176
113
#99
My hope is to go nearer and nearer to Him, every day and always, before during and after....
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
Side note;
Hyper paulines aggressively push a SENTENCE....NOT JESUS.
" Do you believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus"?

Well it is never mentioned as a formula that paul acted on on the Damascus road, nor was it the jailers formula, nor mine, in fact i know of NOBODY that got saved in the MIDST of that questionnaire or REVELATION.
NOBODY.

In most EVERY instance Jesus comes IN SALVATION ....IN PERSON.
Not a bible coming floating in with the correct sentences.

If a person has to believe that phrase and it is skipped in the born again moment, where is their doctrine at that moment.

I came to that dbr knowledge after salvation as did paul and the jailer.

That radical insistence of that phrase Before Salvation is legalism and paul himself failed that test with the jailer.

See what happens?
A phrase from the bible becomes bigger than Jesus himself.
Legalism
totally