Why was a sinless sacrifice necessary?

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Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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#41
The kinsman redeemer theory appears more biblical than the blood rituals

God doesn't allow for penal substitutionary atonement

Ezekiel 18
20 The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness.
God is perfect. He has perfect love and he has perfect justice.

His love can not overrule his justice, if it can, then his justice is not perfect.

His justice demands a payment for sin, the penalty of sin is death.

his love provided a way, it is called redemption. It was made by atonement, which Christ did himself. By setting aside his place in heaven and comming to earth as a child , and suffering the death of the cross.

Love can not over rule. But love paid the price and made a way that Gods justice can be satisfied, thats called propitiation.

You may want to study some my friend.
 

Tman

Banned
Jan 7, 2022
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#42
Not to beat a dead horse here, but that example is Jesus Christ forgiving sins, not God the Father. As I said, all forgiveness of sins is through Jesus Christ's sacrifice.

I would appreciate someone else weighing in on this with Scripture if I am clearly and demonstrably wrong.
John 10:39
I and my Father are one.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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#43
Uhhh, He created everything, He can do whatever He wants

Romans 9:15
For God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”
Yeah he can

but he can not overturn his own judgment, because his justice is perfect. He is not like a human God that plays favorites. Or overlooks a crime just because he feels like it.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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#44
Sola Scriptura.....I'm relying on the Bible, what are you relying on?
Um, Your not relying on scripture.

If you did you would understand who and what God is,

The earth is in the situation it is today because Adam and Eve disobeyed God. You do not comprehend the impact sin makes on Gods character. His justice demands a payment, and that payment it death
 

Tman

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#45
Every time that SATAN speaks to man, he relies on Scripture also, Scripture twisted to his ulterior motives. I have had enough of you and will block you.
John 8:32
You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free

Jesus used scripture to refute Satans lies as well. Jesus used the Old Testament to refute the lies of Satan, ponder thar
 

Tman

Banned
Jan 7, 2022
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#46
God is perfect. He has perfect love and he has perfect justice.

His love can not overrule his justice, if it can, then his justice is not perfect.

His justice demands a payment for sin, the penalty of sin is death.

his love provided a way, it is called redemption. It was made by atonement, which Christ did himself. By setting aside his place in heaven and comming to earth as a child , and suffering the death of the cross.

Love can not over rule. But love paid the price and made a way that Gods justice can be satisfied, thats called propitiation.

You may want to study some my friend.
Your response refutes CALVINISM
 

Everlasting-Grace

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#47
Star to you for finding one of the contradictions we are face down with

Do you believe God from Sinai or the anonymous writer of Hebrews
The god from sinai made the people he spoke to confirm that they would obey every word of the law he gave them, and if they failed. The would be cursed

the only way that curse could be removed was the shedding of blood. On the day of atonement, when the high priest entered the holy place. On the very day Christ hung on the cross, and the lamb of God.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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#48
Your response refutes CALVINISM
I am not arguing for or against calvinism. I could care less what they believe in this conversation

whats your point my friend? Are you here just to argue? Or do you want to discuss the word of God
 

Everlasting-Grace

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#49
John 8:32
You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free

Jesus used scripture to refute Satans lies as well. Jesus used the Old Testament to refute the lies of Satan, ponder thar
Well I personally pray you will humble yourself and listen to some very knowledgeable people here. And open yourself to learning some truth.
 

Tman

Banned
Jan 7, 2022
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#50
Yeah he can

but he can not overturn his own judgment, because his justice is perfect. He is not like a human God that plays favorites. Or overlooks a crime just because he feels like it.
This verse show what you speak of
God is fair and just so he won't punish one person for someone else's sin

Scripture is plain on this and God is immutable

Ezekiel 18
19 “‘What?’ you ask. ‘Doesn’t the child pay for the parent’s sins?’ No! For if the child does what is just and right and keeps my decrees, that child will surely live. 20 The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness. 21 But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die. 22 All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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#51
This verse show what you speak of
God is fair and just so he won't punish one person for someone else's sin

Scripture is plain on this and God is immutable

Ezekiel 18
19 “‘What?’ you ask. ‘Doesn’t the child pay for the parent’s sins?’ No! For if the child does what is just and right and keeps my decrees, that child will surely live. 20 The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness. 21 But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die. 22 All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done.
A human can not pay for another humans sin your right.

A human is also a sinner, A sinner can not pay for the sin of another sinner

THATS WHY CHRIST HAD TO COME, SO HE COULD PAY FOR THE SIN OF THE PEOPLE
 

Tman

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#52
I am not arguing for or against calvinism. I could care less what they believe in this conversation

whats your point my friend? Are you here just to argue? Or do you want to discuss the word of God
I'm posting the word of God, you are posting your words

Read the scriptures, use good hermeneutics, and let's talk
 

Tman

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Jan 7, 2022
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#53
A human can not pay for another humans sin your right.

A human is also a sinner, A sinner can not pay for the sin of another sinner

THATS WHY CHRIST HAD TO COME, SO HE COULD PAY FOR THE SIN OF THE PEOPLE
Hebrews 2
16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way.....

So He wasn't fully human? If He wasn't then God living a sinless life would be as easy as Michael Jordan playing 21 against an infant
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
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#54
Not to beat a dead horse here, but that example is Jesus Christ forgiving sins, not God the Father. As I said, all forgiveness of sins is through Jesus Christ's sacrifice.

I would appreciate someone else weighing in on this with Scripture if I am clearly and demonstrably wrong.
So you think Jesus said, your sins are forgiven. It's an empty promise check that can only be cashed when Jesus Christ's sacrifice.

John 14:9
Jesus said to him, "Philip, have I been with you so long that you don't know me? When people see me, they see the father. How can you say, 'show us the father'?
 

Everlasting-Grace

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#55
Hebrews 2
16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way.....

So He wasn't fully human? If He wasn't then God living a sinless life would be as easy as Michael Jordan playing 21 against an infant
Please tell me where I said Jesus was not fully human.

If your just going to sit here and pick what people say apart. I will do as the other person and just walk away.
 
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"A higher plane," hehe
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#56
So you think Jesus said, your sins are forgiven. It's an empty promise check that can only be cashed when Jesus Christ's sacrifice.

John 14:9
Jesus said to him, "Philip, have I been with you so long that you don't know me? When people see me, they see the father. How can you say, 'show us the father'?
Friend, you are now playing semantical and rhetorical games and this is unworthy of you.

No promise of Christ - Who is the Truth - is empty. Time simply isn't a factor here. Christ's sacrifice for sins was decided before the foundation of the world.

God is a Holy Trinity. The Persons of the Godhead have unique roles and they ARE separate Persons; this is how God has chosen to reveal Himself to us.

Everlasting-Grace has a firm grasp on this. God cannot arbitrarily forgive sins without being unjust and tainting His holiness.
 

Tman

Banned
Jan 7, 2022
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#57
Friend, you are now playing semantical and rhetorical games and this is unworthy of you.

No promise of Christ - Who is the Truth - is empty. Time simply isn't a factor here. Christ's sacrifice for sins was decided before the foundation of the world.

God is a Holy Trinity. The Persons of the Godhead have unique roles and they ARE separate Persons; this is how God has chosen to reveal Himself to us.

Everlasting-Grace has a firm grasp on this. God cannot arbitrarily forgive sins without being unjust and tainting His holiness.
God shows grace whether there is bloodshed or not because He makes the rules

Jesus came, Jesus died, had to and it was planned

It wasn't for. Mystical blood ritual, though. As I have said, God doesn't need blood to forgive, and he doesn't want blood sacrifices
 

Everlasting-Grace

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#58
God shows grace whether there is bloodshed or not because He makes the rules

Jesus came, Jesus died, had to and it was planned

It wasn't for. Mystical blood ritual, though. As I have said, God doesn't need blood to forgive, and he doesn't want blood sacrifices
Yet if jesus did not shed blood

there would be no forgiveness, for anyone, Adam, Abraham, Moses, Noah, You Me, everyone else. Would suffer our eternal fate we all deserve. Eternal death, separation from God
 
Jan 5, 2022
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"A higher plane," hehe
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#59
Yet if jesus did not shed blood

there would be no forgiveness, for anyone, Adam, Abraham, Moses, Noah, You Me, everyone else. Would suffer our eternal fate we all deserve. Eternal death, separation from God
Exactly. Someone had to die for sins. And the life of the flesh is in the blood.

The Blood of the Lamb is a stumblingblock to the unbeliever, which always makes me a bit suspect when someone denies that the shedding of blood is required for forgiveness of sins.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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#60
Exactly. Someone had to die for sins. And the life of the flesh is in the blood.

The Blood of the Lamb is a stumblingblock to the unbeliever, which always makes me a bit suspect when someone denies that the shedding of blood is required for forgiveness of sins.
Mathew tells us jesus fulfilled the law

he could not fulfill the law without

1. Obeying every word (every jot and tittle)
2. Shedding blood

that is what the law required.

and remember, the law was the tutor or schoolmaster which was supposed to lead us to christ. So if we want to find christ, we find him in his fulfilling the law. And what that means.

the confusion comes when we read the penalty of sin is death. Physical death is not in reference here. Or everyone who physically dies has paid for their own sin,

And also. Jesus said it is finished (in the G2 tetelistai - which is a judicial term which means paid in full) so the penalty of sin was paid before he physically died.

he also was not killed by man technically, He could have came for the cross. And defeated the romans and set up his thrown, But he gave up his own life (it is said, he bowed his head and gave up the ghost) bit as you said earlier, his physical death and resurrection had purpose. It is where our hope lies. No ressurection means no hope; no hope means no faith. How would we come to Christ with no hope?

It can be confusing if you really get down deep.