Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

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Webers.Home

Webers.Home

Well-known member
#461
May 28, 2018
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#461
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TheLearner said:
I am not sure I understand you. I Cor 15 and the definitions I posted
shows that our bodies become incorruptible.
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Do you honestly believe that God would actually be content associating with
people forever all the while their inner man is corruptible-- that part of them
that's hostile towards God, not subject to the law of God; neither indeed
can be?

I'm looking forward to taking full possession of an incorruptible body same
as you, but I'm also looking forward to obtaining full possession of the
incorruptible inner man spoken of by 2Pet 1:3-4.

I've yet to find an example of Jesus speaking of the divine nature with the
exact same two words found in Peter's epistle. rather, Jesus spoke of it as
eternal life, which is the very same thing as divine nature; only by a
different name.

The best thing is: human life is corruptible, whereas eternal life isn't
because it's the life in God. Whereas human life has an intrinsic preference
for evil; the life in God has an intrinsic preference for just the opposite.

I have no clue how God performs this rather unusual miracle, but He is able
to remove their natural life and furnish folks with His life so that there will
never again be any more friction between Himself and them: only harmony.
In my judicious estimation, this particular element of the plan of salvation is
the icing on the cake, the bees knees, and the cat's meow all rolled into one.
_
 
D

Duckybill

Well-known member
#462
Aug 16, 2021
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#462
"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

Amen Jesus!
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

Banned
#463
Aug 3, 2019
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#463
TheLearner said:
You ignored the main point as I expect by a dishonest person.
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I'm not dishonest.

In 2006 I was pulling down $10,000/month putting in crazy hurricane restoration OT, but when forced to work on Sabbath, I refused and got fired.

Having won a precedent setting arbitration case by God's grace and was rehired, recently, I was pulling down $18,000/month working the same crazy hurricane restoration OT, but passing up $1200 Saturdays because I wanted to "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."

Why would I sacrifice so much to keep the Fourth Commandment, then climb on CC and willfully break the Ninth Commandment?

If you can't discuss spiritual propositions without attacking one's character, you prove yourself to be spiritually immature and have no business in a Bible discussion chat room. Please, let's all be agreeable as we disagree, OK?
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

Banned
#464
Aug 3, 2019
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#464
TheLearner said:
I cor 15 tells us about the resurrected body. In context it speaks of Christians. The difference between goats and sheep are very little. Thus the description of the resurrected body relates to the goats' resurrected body too.
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Yes, it is speaking of Christians...but if we look at Romans 2:7-9 KJV, we discover that while the righteous who "seek" immortality will eventually be granted it, the wicked who do not seek it do not get it.

That's why John said, "Whosever hateth his brother is a murderer...AND YE KNOW THAT NO MURDERER HATH ETERNAL LIFE ABIDING IN HIM."

Q. How can there be a never-ending hell if there is no never-ending murderer?
A. It can't be -- "...for the former things are passed away."
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

Banned
#465
Aug 3, 2019
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#465
Duckybill said:
"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

Amen Jesus!
Click to expand...
"Amen"?
Are you saying you derive pleasure from another's suffering?
Did Jesus?
Or, did He weep over Jerusalem as He foresaw the destruction that would befall it when the Romans burned it to the ground?
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

Banned
#466
Aug 3, 2019
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#466
TheLearner said:
And, you ignore Isaiah 14 that the dead are alive and aware.
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Are we just going to ignore what is clearly and contextually symbolism?

Do fir trees and cedar trees rejoice?
Do they know whether the lumberjack is on the job or not?
Can the dead actually talk?
The smartest man who ever lived says plainly, "no".

The Immortal Soul crowd talks out of both sides of its mouth. They claim martyrs go straight to heaven and "be present with the Lord" .... but then they claim they're trapped under some earthly altar crying out for vengeance.
WHICH IS IT?

You see, this is what I mean by the Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment crowd always resorting to making literal what should be immediately understood as symbolic in order to establish their position.
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

Banned
#467
Aug 3, 2019
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#467
TheLearner said:
Wow, you borrowed an Unitarian Argument there friend. Go figure.
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Nah, I reasoned that out all by myself, as Scripture says "come now, let's reason together".

It's not reasonable to take the strongest words that the Hebrew tongue possesses which signify "destroy" or "destruction" and explain them to mean "maintain an everlasting but wretched existence. To translate 'black' as 'white' is nothing to this."

(I did borrow that one from Dr. R. F. Weymouth, one of the greatest Greek scholars of modern times.)
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

Banned
#468
Aug 3, 2019
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#468
TheLearner said:
What text of bible do you have in mind friend?
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Psalms 91, which is clearly referring to the coming of our Lord, when the wicked are rewarded with death and the righteous rewarded with "long life" eternal and salvation from the Second Death.
 
D

Duckybill

Well-known member
#470
Aug 16, 2021
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#470
Phoneman-777 said:
"Amen"?
Are you saying you derive pleasure from another's suffering?
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I never said nor implied such a thing.
Did Jesus?
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Why are you making this stuff up? You sound pretty desparate.
Or, did He weep over Jerusalem as He foresaw the destruction that would befall it when the Romans burned it to the ground?
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You're changing the subject because you don't have a leg to stand on. Luke 16 is not a parable.
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

Banned
#471
Aug 3, 2019
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#471
Diakonos said:
You make a good point. I won't use that word for this point. I'll use the word "figurative". The Biblical authors often use figurative language to describe spiritual realities...in this case, the tongue of the rich man and the finger of Lazarus. As for the "bosom" of Abraham, it's a Hebrew idiom meaning "in close relationship to", like how Jesus is "in the bosom of the Father" (John 1).


"the parable of the fig tree" echoed in Matthew 24 is a ... parable.

My point concerning Absolom's men is that people "knowing nothing" does not mean they are unconscious. Neither the context of 2 Samuel nor Ecclesiastes indicates such an interpretation.
Again I ask, do you understand what Solomon means when he says, "under the sun" throughout the book?


Please show me how the context of the book indicates that Solomon believes that.


Yes its all literal. "Abraham's bosom is the name of
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There is nothing in all the Bible to corroborate the claim that "Abraham's Bosom" is a geolocation. You're basing your interpretation purely on an assumption. Also, if Jesus is being "figurative" in the passage, that means the passage is not literal. Can it be both literal and figurative at the same time? Or course not.
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

Banned
#472
Aug 3, 2019
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#472
Duckybill said:
Your words not Jesus'. Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.
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Not only do I believe in hell, but the one in which I believe is a LOT HOTTER than you hell.

Yours slowly simmers people on low heat for all eternity....mine is so hot, it incinerates them out of existence.
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

Banned
#473
Aug 3, 2019
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#473
Duckybill said:
I never said nor implied such a thing.

Why are you making this stuff up? You sound pretty desparate.

You're changing the subject because you don't have a leg to stand on. Luke 16 is not a parable.
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"Amen!" indicates strong agreement or delight. Since you quoted verses pertaining to the torment of the wicked and wrote "Amen!", my question was legit. I'm happy to discuss why Luke 16 can't possibly be a literal story, but I'm not interested in bickering, so ball in your court.
 
CS1

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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Phoneman-777 said:
Not only do I believe in hell, but the one in which I believe is a LOT HOTTER than you hell.

Yours slowly simmers people on low heat for all eternity....mine is so hot, it incinerates them out of existence.
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You can have your hell if you like I think the Hell Jesus talked about is a place I don't want to go to.
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

Banned
#475
Aug 3, 2019
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#475
CS1 said:
You can have your hell if you like I think the Hell Jesus talked about is a place I don't want to go to.
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The one Jesus talked about IS the one I'm talking about.

The worms never died in the Valley of Gehenna as long as they kept throwing dead animals in it, and nobody was running around with a fire hose trying to quench the fire...but there's no more worms there today, nor is there any fire burning, right or wrong?
 
D

Duckybill

Well-known member
#476
Aug 16, 2021
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#476
Phoneman-777 said:
Not only do I believe in hell, but the one in which I believe is a LOT HOTTER than you hell.

Yours slowly simmers people on low heat for all eternity....mine is so hot, it incinerates them out of existence.
Click to expand...
Low heat? Tell that to the rich man.

"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

YOUR Hell is not Biblical. "Eternal", "everlasting", and "forever and ever" is the Biblical Hell fire. You don't know those are all in the NT?
 
D

Duckybill

Well-known member
#477
Aug 16, 2021
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#477
Phoneman-777 said:
"Amen!" indicates strong agreement or delight. Since you quoted verses pertaining to the torment of the wicked and wrote "Amen!", my question was legit. I'm happy to discuss why Luke 16 can't possibly be a literal story, but I'm not interested in bickering, so ball in your court.
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Yes I STRONGLY agree with Jesus. Luke 16 is literal as are Abraham, Moses and Lazarus!
 
Diakonos

Diakonos

Well-known member
#478
Jan 19, 2019
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#478
Phoneman-777 said:
There is nothing in all the Bible to corroborate the claim that "Abraham's Bosom" is a geolocation.
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"Abraham's bosom" is the name of a section of Hades (Sheol).
The Bible tells us where Sheol/Hades is located:

“As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions. So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.” (Numbers 16:31–33)

“Let death come deceitfully upon them; Let them go down alive to Sheol, For evil is in their dwelling, in their midst.” (Psalm 55:15)

“Let us swallow them alive like Sheol, Even whole, as those who go down to the pit;” (Proverbs 1:12)

“Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones...Nevertheless, you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit...Those who see you will gaze at you, They will ponder over you, saying, ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,” (Isaiah 14:16)

““Son of man, wail for the hordes of Egypt and bring it down, her and the daughters of the powerful nations, to the nether world, with those who go down to the pit;” (Ezekiel 32:18)

““I made the nations quake at the sound of its fall when I made it go down to Sheol with those who go down to the pit; and all the well-watered trees of Eden, the choicest and best of Lebanon, were comforted in the earth beneath.” (Ezekiel 31:16)

“then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth, like the ancient waste places, with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I will set glory in the land of the living.” (Ezekiel 26:20)

“When He ascended on high, He led a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.' (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?” (Ephesians 4:8–9)


Sheol/Hades is down inside the depths of the earth. It is where the spirits of mankind wait for judgment. The righteous went to Abrahams' bosom (also called "Paradise") to wait for their sins to be judged on the cross of Jesus. The wicked still go to the torment side (across the great gulf) to wait for their sins to be judged (before God's throne- Rev 20). They can see each other and talk to each other. As disembodied spirits, they are quite "alive". That is why one of my references say, "Let them go down alive to Sheol".
 
T

tigerwillow17

New member
#479
Jan 15, 2022
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Hello everyone!

I think it would be interesting to get a general idea of what all of you believe is the main point of the Rich Man and Lazarus story, so I created a one multiple-choice question survey on surveymonkey,com.

The question is: What do you believe the main point of the Rich Man and Lazarus story was to Jesus' audience at the time they heard Him tell this story?

Please click this link if you want to participate. Your answer should be anonymous, so I won't know which answer you choose.

I have never done this before, so I hope it works! Please let me know if you have any trouble with it, but I think it should be fairly straightforward
 
J

justbyfaith

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Sep 16, 2021
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#480
Phoneman-777 said:
Perhaps, but there's are pretty clear that the person itself is going to be on fire.

For instance, Satan (personified as the "king of Tyre" in Ezekiel 28) is told God will "bring a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, it will turn thee to ashes..."

Also, "and ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of thy feet..."

Again, "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume;into smoke shall they consume away".
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According to the book of Revelation, "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever..."
 
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