Four Crucified

_________________cont'd ______________

Luke


23:32 And there were also two other, malefactors (dyo kakourgos), led WITH him to be put to death.

23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

These two malefactors were led with Him and crucified at the same time that Jesus was crucified.



23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

23:36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,

23:37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.

23:38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.



Matthew

27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

27:36 And sitting down they watched him there;

27:37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

27:38 “THEN” were there two robbers (dyo lēstēs) crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

Then = Time (verse 38) were two robbers crucified with Him. This is after Jesus and the two malefactors had been crucified, after sitting down and watching him, after they accusation was placed over his head ~THEN ~ were the two robbers crucified with Him.

27:39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,



(Mat 27:40, Mat 27:41, Mat 27:42)


27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

27:44 The robbers also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Both of these robbers cast the same in his teeth.



Mark – basically states the same thing as Matthew

15:24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.

15:25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

15:26 And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

15:27 And with him they crucify two robbers; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.

(Mar 15:28, Mar 15:29, Mar 15:30)





15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.



JOHN

19:16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.

19:17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:

19:18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, “on either side” [one], and Jesus in the midst.

The phrase “on either side” (in verse 18) is the Greek word enteuthen kai enteuthen…..It means - on this side, and on that side

NOTE: The word “ONE” in verse 18 is omitted in every critical Greek text. it was added by translators. Any Greek-English interlinear will show there is no corresponding Greek word for the word one. (a deliberate forgery is a word or words purposely added to change a narrative, to bolster a belief)


The Greek version of John 19:18 reads - Where Him they crucified, and with Him others, two on this side and on that side, in between now Jesus.


19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

( Jhn 19:20……through……… Jhn 19:30)


19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

John 19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.

John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

The solders came to the robber first, then to the other, which would be the malefactor…then they came to Jesus.

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Why God had the gospels written the way they are….and why four crucified …..God only knows.... Possibly the perspective of the different aspects of Jesus Christ ministry. Something the prophets of old foretold this in regard to the BRANCH in the OT, which fit with the 4 gospels as such …......... Matthew - as King, Mark - as Servant, Luke – as Man and John – as Son of God…

I don’t know….just a guess

What I do know is…. there always a significance to the things of God. But the one thing we don’t do is weave together sections of gospels into a single narrative, using our human reasoning to see how they harmonize….that is an attempt to bring God down to our level.

We read through scripture, we see what each gospel adds to the account, we see how it fits ….. We don’t make the similar identical and we don’t dismiss scripture because it doesn’t fit our narrative or assumed belief. Because every day for Christians….. it is the integrity of the Word of God that we are responsible for.

Someone once told me that this is controversial ….because it goes against what he was taught ….Well, I didn’t author the Book…….. At the end of the day, it’s up to you what you accept. You can hold on to your beliefs or believe what is written.

This subject of four crucified came up in another thread…. and rather than hijacking that I thought it best to start a new thread with this subject.


My perspective on the Word is that all scripture is given by inspiration of God (2Ti 3:16), by revelation of/from Jesus Christ (Gal 1:12), and men of God spake moved by the holy spirit (2Pe 1:21) In other words, not by the will of man.

The Word of God in its original form was perfect and without errors. Any supposed errors have come from our understanding, translation, transmission, or deliberate forgeries.

Unfortunately, religion has defrauded us through harmony of the gospels setting the table for our misunderstanding. This is just one of several events mostly surrounding Christ’s crucifixion that we have been fed through religion that are inaccurate.

Following are the applicable scripture of this account from each gospel. I am starting with Luke ….then Matthew, Mark, and John. The scriptures that I did not post are linked in effort to condense this post …..as they did not add relevant information to the event. My comments are in Red ….The rest…. is what God had written …

As you will see from Luke there were two malefactors (dyo kakourgos) crucified with Jesus and later after an unknown amount of time, two thieves (robbers) (dyo lēstēs) were brought to be put to death.

The KJV has thieves which is a horrible translation (many other versions got it right). The Greeks use an entirely different word for a thief which is kleptes…. and it means, one who acts stealthily. The word lēstēs = robber, is used throughout this account of the crucifixion. A robber is one who openly plans his dirty work using violence if necessary.

Malefactors - Greek = kakourgos is an evildoer.

Two – Greek = (dyo)
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Matthew 27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
Matthew 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
Matthew 27:44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Others were mocking by saying this but I don't think the thieves did the same thing...they "cast the same in his teeth" which I interpret to be they also wondered why Christ didn't save himself...but for other reasons than the priests were saying it. Even if they did mock the same as the others did, perhaps it was an initial reaction of anger and fear of their own deaths but after awhile I highly doubt they would be in the mood to be mocking anyone.

I think its important that there are gospels that don't mention the one who believed in Christ and what Christ said to him...I happen to believe it was still one of these thieves mentioned right here but that the conversation isnt recorded for whatever reason. Perhaps after awhile and the fate set in his mind, the one reached out to Christ and said what is recorded in the other gospel.


I also find it important that no gospel says Christ was crucified with four others...its always two others and I do not see it ever adding a second two.


John 19:18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

Again, John records only two crucified with Christ.


John 19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:


Here they come to the first, then go to the other who is on the other side and then return back to Christ lastly. Perhaps he looked deader than the others and they decided to deal with the other two first...or for some divine reason Christ was come to lastly...who knows but I don't see this as anywhere saying they approached the first two on one side and then came to Christ...its pretty clear there were only three from the beginning to the end.



Matthew 27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

Mark 15:27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.

Luke 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

John 19:18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.


I see no disharmony or conflicts in the four gospels. Christ was crucified with two others, one on Christ's right hand, one on His left hand...no more or less.

It was my bad ...I was trying to get them to land in order ...I had to to two as it would not fit on one.

the four gospels are eye witness accounts. John was standing at the cross with Mary.

Luke’s account is from many eye witnesses who were present.

matthews account would be Matthew the apostles account whether in parts his own or things other apostles had seen and told him.

marks account would be another disciple who closely followed and studied with Peter the apostle donors most likely peters account.

the point is there are going to be some seeming contradictions because the gospels are based on eye witness accounts people standing at different angles and distances hearing slightly different things seeing slightly different details.

Even in the case of his teachings and events that happened in the gospel it’s evident that the same events are being witnessed from different perspectives who also use different words to witness the same things.

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭

see Matthew hadn’t met Jesus yet none of them had like his birth it was witnessed by others like Mary who were there. The gospels are partly other peoples witness of things the apostles weren’t there to see and parts are their own eye witness accounts , in Luke’s case he did a thorough open investigation gathering all the credible witnesses he could to put the gentiles witness of the gospel together.

they are all true it’s just that if you have several witnesses I are there at different times and see different details each persons account is going to offer different details , different terminology , different events even like the gospels do offer many differing details of the same events

four witnesses of one short an in human history in Jerusalem about 2000 years ago that changes the world of men forever.

I bet if you took any four Christians and led them around for three years d all these amazing things were happening , he was separating some out for certain roles ect I bet we would all have distinguished accounts also if we were later to write down our perspective of what happened.


It’s when we put the four gospels together we get a real clear picture of God and salvation especially when johns gospel is included with the other three

I appreciate your perspective and you are not alone with that viewpoint.

I qualified my post (although it comes afterwards #2) by stating the following:

My perspective on the Word is that all scripture is given by inspiration of God (2Ti 3:16), by revelation of/from Jesus Christ (Gal 1:12), and men of God spake moved by the holy spirit (2Pe 1:21) In other words, not by the will of man.



I have to believe that all scripture is God breathed or I would walk away in a heartbeat. If I thought it was written by man’s recollection or mans will ….what would be the difference if we followed Jesus Christ or John Smith or The Prophet Muhammad….It would all be man made doctrine.

But I absolutely know that all scripture in the Word of God is/was given by revelation from God…..that includes the gospels….which BTW were unnamed until sometime in the 2nd century. But because it is given by revelation, there are no contradiction no errors…. for our God is perfect, He is the Author ....and He has magnified His Word above all His name (Psa 138:2)

By sheer logic…. if you can break the scripture at any one point, how can it be trusted anywhere else….it couldn’t! ……..But it is perfect…. Our God is beyond flawless, however, man is not. Which is why I stated in the OP → But the one thing we don’t do is weave together sections of gospels into a single narrative, using our human reasoning to see how they harmonize….that is an attempt to bring God down to our level........ and that never works out well

If this (four crucified) were the only area of contention, It would behoove us to study this and see why the errors….but it’s not.
There are at least 7 events in the category of the crucifixion that we have been taught due to gospel harmony that are not accurate.... according to the Word of God. For instance.... Peter denied Jesus 6 X ….Yet, haven’t we been taught it was three. This is due to harmony, which has been a great disservice to all of us.


God Bless

There is not a Greek word for “one?”

That is not what I said.
I said the word “ONE” in verse 18 is omitted in every critical Greek text.

sorry I see what you’re saying now. Thank you. I need some time to mull this over.

I understand...

I have read through the gospels at least 100 times and the funny thing is I have noticed the different words with malefactor and thief and I looked them up. When I asked my pastor, he stated Luke just used different words to describe what he saw. But after reading this I am looking at it differently. Not solely based on this, but because of what you mentioned about Peter’s denials. I don’t know about 6, but I do know there were at least 4, although I had brushed that off as an error on Matthew or Mark. And there are some other things that don’t jive, that again, I just let pass by. But I am going to be reading, not just the gospels, but the whole bible with a different perspective. If you ever get a chance to post the denials, I am interested.

My conclusion is that what you presented, while interesting, relies mostly on loopholes in semantics and inference as the best proof. I didn’t immediately dismiss it, but there’s stronger evidence, in my opinion, that there were two others crucified with Jesus, bringing the total to three.

The evidence is better because the two others had speaking roles and the two others had their legs broken. So it seems more likely, just viewing this through the narrow window of the pages in the Bible, which are by no means all inclusive of minute details, that there were just three people crucified in total.

I also prayed about this, too, very humbly of course, because what you wrote really made me wonder. So my answer from prayer is three also.

I would also consider how numbers play an important role in the Bible. Four? I don’t recall any importance attached to four, but three is used a lot. Not definitive, just something to consider.

Thank you ….I appreciate your honesty towards the Word of God. Critical thinking is paramount with the Word, and whether we agree on this or not, it blesses me to see that exhibited in a believer’s life.

I will be posting on the 6 denials of Peter as pers someone’s request and I could certainly use your critical thinking on that when I do. This also is one of the areas that harmony of the gospels has overshadowed and fed us the wrong information on.