Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

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justbyfaith

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justbyfaith said:
The everlasting punishment is meted out by being cast into everlasting fire which will be characterized by wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:46, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).
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justbyfaith

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posthuman said:
my opinion is worthless and it really doesn't matter what you think.
what matters is what God says.
that being the case, if you want to talk about hell, it means it's word-study time, and you and i both can leave our feelings and opinions about what makes sense or is just at the door. God did not poll our opinions when He established the truth. we agree about this much, yes?

so -- not that i'm qualified at all, but let's get the ball rolling on something actually worthwhile on the subject instead of back-and-forth opinion vs. opinion and feelings vs feelings and yeah-this-is-clearly-wrong-but-i'm-going-to-keep-saying-it vs. facts.



'hell' is not in the Bible at all. that's an English word.

in the Hebrew it's ubiquitously 'sheol'
in the Greek, we have hades used interchangeably for sheol; when NT authors quote OT scriptures containing sheol they directly substitute hades.
but also in the Greek we have gehenna, and we have 1 verse in Peter mentioning tartaroo.
this all bears some examination. let's start with tartaroo --

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment​
(2 Peter 2:4)​
​
this is the only place this word is found in the Bible.
for our purposes, it's important to know that this verse ((i quoted nkjv but most follow suit)) does not actually have the word hell in it at all. the whole phrase 'cast them down to hell' is one word in Greek, tartarōsas
that's a verb. it's where the word 'tartarus' in Greek mythos stems from, but Peter doesn't say 'tartarus' -- Peter uses the verb tartaroo.
tartaroo as far as i can tell means to thrust down / push down in an ultimate sense; i.e. as low down as it's possible to push.
the KJV translators apparently didn't really know what to make of this but they figured they knew where evil angels ought to be, so they put it as 'cast to hell' in English.

so: Peter doesn't specifically say where these angels were put ((does 'where' make sense for spiritual beings anyway? or is where only a physical terminology? we going to have to eventually get into topological discussions)). Peter says they are cast down & chained, and that ((very interestingly)) they are reserved for judgement. they have not yet been judged - not in a 'final' sense.
so wherever they are, whatever their present state is, it's analogous to a 'holding cell' -- we can think of it modern terms as being incarcerated waiting for trial.

are they in hell?
if you're a KJV-onlyist, you're bound by oath to say yes ((lol - my friends, i kid. i do love you))
but in Revelation we find later they are cast into the lake of fire -- so then maybe mr. i-don't-like-milk has a case with you, because he's going to say, ok what is the lake of fire? is that hell? but these guys were already in hell, according to KJB, so do you have 2 hells or do you have them taken out of hell and put right back into it?
in a modern sense, that's kinda analogous to you are put in jail, you go to trial, you go back to jail. but the reality even in the modern system is that there are county detention centers you get held in, then after trial, you may go to an actual prison. they are two different places. jail is not equal to prison. i'll leave it to people with actual experience in such matters to give their testimony of what's worse, but we have a place where we detain people against whom there is much evidence of guilt ((jail)) until they are judged, and then we have a whole other place after the day of judgement where they go.

but getting back to the focus of our attention: what is tartaroo? it is being thrust down and chained. it's the result of an immediate judgement before the day of trial. so, we have obvious questions to answer:


  • who are these angels?
  • where are they now?
    • is it hell?
      • what is hell? it's not even Greek/Hebrew. do we have a definition of it?
    • is it sheol?
    • is it hades?
      • are sheol/hades truly interchangeable terms?
    • is it the lake of fire?
      • is sheol the lake of fire?
      • is hades the lake of fire?
      • is gehenna the lake of fire?
    • is it 'death' ?
      • does death belong in this conversation at all?
      • is death a different construct than the things English-speakers call hell?
      • is death = sheol?
      • is death = hades?
      • is death = Abraham's bosom?
      • is death = gehenna?
      • is death something altogether different; is it apples & oranges to the question of hell?
  • why are they wherever they are?
    • what's the point of being chained awaiting judgement? why not just judge them immediately? doesn't God know all the evidence?
    • is He giving them space to repent?
    • can they repent?
    • is God cruel & unjust if He is just 'making them sweat' when their final judgement is a foregone conclusion?
    • is God merciful and good if He waits until the appointed time?
    • why is there an appointed time?
    • if there is an appointed time, why chain them in **wherever they are** ? why not just wait till the time?
  • is Peter actually making allusions to Tartarus per Greek mythos? is that why he uses this word?
  • does Peter mean for us to understand this as 'hell' or is this a mistranslation?
    • is 'hell' even a good use of language?
    • what is i-don't-like-milk's concept of hell?
      • are those concepts scriptural or cultural?
    • should we avoid using the word 'hell' altogether because of its inaccurate cultural connotations?

i think i've written enough for a good starting point for now -- and i've left so, so much out, but i realize how long this single post is getting already -- frankly i am not interested in entertaining mr. phone's vain love for arguing anymore over his thoroughly disproven hypothesis, so i'm glad for a better topic for discussion. and frankly, i'm currently working 60+ hour weeks for the next year-ish so while i may have time to think i have very little time to correspond. i say that because i know some of my posts seem curt and possibly rude, but i want you to know i like the direction you're moving the discussion to, but i am sorry that i simply don't have the luxury of fully engaging in the discussion.



tldr:
the Bible is not an English-language text. it uses a lot of words that wind up being translated as 'hell' or wind up being incorporated into our idea of what 'hell' is -- but the Bible is a lot more complex than that. the fact that several different words God uses get lumped into one blanket term 'hell' should immediately make us stop and think, wait, is my idea of 'hell' correct? and the way to find out is to set aside all of our presuppositions and opinions and humbly look at what God actually says, carefully, ask lots of questions, and look for answers.
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It should be clear that it is everlasting fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).
 
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Runningman

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justbyfaith said:
The everlasting punishment is meted out by being cast into everlasting fire where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:46, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).
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That’s a bit shortsighted since it doesn’t take into account the additional verses. The second death will be painful, but it isn’t eternal conscious torment.

Revelation 2:11
11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Again, the unrighteous don’t live forever under conditions.
 
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justbyfaith

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Runningman said:
That’s a bit shortsighted since it doesn’t take into account the additional verses. The second death will be painful, but it isn’t eternal conscious torment.

Revelation 2:11
11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Again, the unrighteous don’t live forever under conditions.
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The lake of fire is defined for us in Revelation 20:10, as being a place where they are "tormented day and night for ever and ever"...

for those who do not overcome.
 
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Runningman

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justbyfaith said:
The lake of fire is defined for us in Revelation 20:10, as being a place where they are "tormented day and night for ever and ever"...

for those who do not overcome.
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I don’t agree that forever is literally forever there. Besides, to get really specific, Rev. 20:10 says three persons are tormented forever: the devil, beast, and false prophet.
 
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Duckybill

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Runningman said:
I never said that or suggested it. I agree with everything Jesus has said. So why do you insist I am calling Jesus anything?
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Then you believe in the eternal Hell!

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 
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Runningman

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Duckybill said:
Then you believe in the eternal Hell!

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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No Duckybill, that’s just your interpretation of the Bible. It doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. My interpretation is more accurate and I’ve extensively covered that. You’ve been refuted repeatedly using scripture and at this point your only retort is posting the same Bible verses over and over again. How long do you want to do this?
 
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Duckybill

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Runningman said:
No Duckybill, that’s just your interpretation of the Bible. It doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means.
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I didn't interpret anything. I quoted Jesus. Stop blaming me. Blame Jesus, the Author.

"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

No interpretation needed!
 
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Runningman

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Duckybill said:
I didn't interpret anything. I quoted Jesus. Stop blaming me. Blame Jesus, the Author.

"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

No interpretation needed!
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Your Bible interpretation and mangling of scripture is a hot mess. We don’t just throw random verses together that talk about fire and punishment when they don’t even match the argument you’re trying to support.

Nail in the coffin 1: The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus doesn’t say it lasts forever, the rich man was not weeping, or gnashing his teeth. While engulfed in flames he was completely cognizant and arguably more polite than you’ve been in this thread.

Nail in the coffin 2: Revelation 20:10 says that only three persons are tormented forever: the devil, beast, and false prophet.

Nail in the coffin 3: Hebrews 2:14 says the devil is destroyed.

Nail in the coffin 4: Revelation 20:14 and 21:8 say the lake of fire is the second death.

Nail in the coffin 5: The eternal flames are the unquenchable fires of the lake of fire. The eternal punishment is death.

Your false doctrine has been nailed closed and buried. I’m done arguing with intellectually dishonest people.
 
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Duckybill

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Runningman said:
Your Bible interpretation and mangling of scripture is a hot mess. We don’t just throw random verses together that talk about fire and punishment when they don’t even match the argument you’re trying to support.
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Random verses? Interpretation? You keep making up your fairy tale and TWISTING the Words of Jesus.
Nail in the coffin 1: The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus doesn’t say it lasts forever, the rich man was not weeping, or gnashing his teeth. While engulfed in flames he was completely cognizant and arguably more polite than you’ve been in this thread.
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Parable is YOUR word not Jesus'!
Nail in the coffin 2: Revelation 20:10 says that only three persons are tormented forever: the devil, beast, and false prophet.
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Let's try again. Maybe you will understand.
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Nail in the coffin 3: Hebrews 2:14 says the devil is destroyed.
No it doesn't! You continue your fairy tale.
Nail in the coffin 4: Revelation 20:14 and 21:8 say the lake of fire is the second death.
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Death does not mean "cease to exist".
Nail in the coffin 5: The eternal flames are the unquenchable fires of the lake of fire. The eternal punishment is death.
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You just admitted what Jesus said. Hell fire is "eternal" and "unquenchable". See how the Truth comes out!

Your false doctrine has been nailed closed and buried. I’m done arguing with intellectually dishonest people.
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Do you know the penalty of removing the eternal Hell from the Bible. I doubt you even know.
Revelation 22:19 (NKJV)
19 If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
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posthuman

posthuman

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LactoseIntolerant said:
The question
"Hades, gehenna, tartaroo What are these?

You were asking of places..
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two of those are nouns and the other is a verb.
that was part of 'what are these' ?
- sorting out that they are referring to two different things.

justbyfaith said:
It should be clear that it is everlasting fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).
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I think that's clearly what Jesus is referring to when He uses the word gehenna. He says don't fear someone who can only destroy your body, but fear Who can destroy also the soul in gehenna.
If Jesus was just talking about a valley where waste was dumped, then this saying would be senseless. Any man could kill you and dump your corpse in a dumpster. So what?
But God can put your body and soul in the lake of fire prepared for the devil.
 
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LactoseIntolerant

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John146 said:
There’s only one hell, although the scripture indicates there could be levels. The lake of fire is the eternal fire. I could post many more if needed.

Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
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Its is an ode. Song of Moses. It is poetry.

John146 said:
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
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Same talk different expressions
Mark 9:43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Gehenna, unquenchable

Matthew 18:8Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
No Gehenna, everlasting

Luke 17:3Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
No Gehenna, No fire

I think I submitted this before. It means Luke did not get the memo of hell either. The concept of hell was not officially expounded, it is just rhetoric.

John146 said:
James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
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Submit to the leader. Don't make things up. Gehenna is a place of destruction. Poetic rhetoric
James 3:1My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. 2For in many things we offend all.
Prov 6:16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
More rhetoric as these speak of the same concept.

John146 said:
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
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Where is it expounded the levels of hell and there are versions of hell. I'll let you settle the details with posthuman and thelearner. It is get too fantastic down there.
 
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Duckybill

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Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell, "forever and ever".
 
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LactoseIntolerant

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Duckybill said:
Yes I can speak for Jesus:

Matthew 5:22 (NKJV)
22 Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Now call Jesus a "hellmonger". I don't think you will to His face.
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Repeating the same thing over and over does not mean it is more convincing. It indicates an unsettled mind. :)
 
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Duckybill

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LactoseIntolerant said:
Repeating the same thing over and over does not mean it is more convincing. It indicates an unsettled mind. :)
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Quoting Jesus over and over "indicates an unsettled mind"? That sounds like something Satan would say!
 
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Duckybill

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What Jesus said about those who remove the eternal Hell from the Bible:

Revelation 22:19 (NKJV)
19 If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 
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