TONGUES is a precious gift from God

Yeah, and like I was saying it is not my experience or anyone that I know personally that they can just speak in tongues whenever and for however long they want to.

It is a gift of the Spirit and comes from the Spirit as does all the other gifts.

It is the Spirit that gives utterance. Many are out there now walking in their own spirit and not waiting on and heeding to the Holy Ghost. This is where a reproach and shame are brought against the Gifts of the Spirit because of the fakes out there.

People can fake up all the tongues they want. The thing about that is the Holy Spirit is not in it and it will not help anyone. It only hinders others from believing in the True Gifts of the Spirit.

You have folks out there making a total mockery of the Gifts of the Spirit because they are not willing to wait upon the Spirit.

The only way to reap of the Spirit is sow to the Spirit. That is putting all your faith and trust in the Lord, submitting to Him, and walking humbly with Him.

That's the only way one will be filled with the Holy Spirit. We can't be filled with the Holy Spirit and also filled with the flesh.

Deny the flesh, sow in the Spirit, submit to the Spirit and let the Spirit have control.

People don't want to hear it anymore. They'd rather have sugar coating and lies.

If we go about sowing to the flesh and trying to please the flesh, then we are going to reap in the flesh. The Spirit is not going to be moving on you other than for the purpose of conviction, correction, and rebuke and that is just the plain and simple truth.

I believe that Romans 6:6 and its outworking in meaning as expressed as an admonishment in Galatians 2:20 has everything to do with being crucified in Christ and no longer taking confidence in oneself to keep the law - as an attempt to preserve oneself. That would be an impossible thing to resist for anyone who is born again and cites themselves as a teacher of others.

You appear to be saying that like Paul we can come to that meaning by the working of miracles and the exercising of spiritual gifts - expressly tongues in this instant.

That is the Pentecostal way - it is not the biblical way of Paul the Apostle.

That is why @Aidan1 agreed with my post @#1,275 when I first mentioned Romans 6:6 and Galatians 2:20 - and yet he would have to be held to be deficient in your meaning because he is a cessationist. I am not. so you call me friend.

You said:

What is harder to explain to people (faithful people, sincere disciples) is that none of those requirements are an obstacle to working miracles, etc. In fact it is quite the opposite.

The distinction here is profound. To you it is profound and to myself it is profound. The difference is a chasm that cannot be crossed.

It is clear that people either lack comprehension or they do not know God in his fullness.

Of course there are more excuses to be noted.
They are being taught and led by MAN and not the SPIRIT!

GOD is not a side show to be controlled at the whim or will of man. He is the creator and orcherstrator of HIS plans. YOU are either with God or against him and with your father.

Again God in his fullness of the father,the son and the Holy Spirit can not be taught to you,nor do you receive the indwelling by way of man.

Be sure you are not being deceived either by ignorance or you own desire for the easy way.

I agree with the idea that we CANNOT be justified by the works of the law or even sincere attempt to keep the law.

In short, miracles, prophesying, healings, etc. are simply a part of walking in Christ. They are not means to a personal end...except in that they benefit the well-being of the church at large and inasmuch as we are a part of that body. And they are good to do and to receive.

However, I do recognize and try to express the difference between spiritual manifestations that benefit the GROUP or some particular member(s) within that group other than the individual being used to perform(?) that manifestation, and the manifestation of the spirit that ONLY builds (edifies) the one doing the manifestation (unknown tongues)...also acknowledging the exception of occasions where God has it spoken out loud in the church for the purpose of being interpreted. In that case, the speaking in tongues part still only benefits the one performing/doing the speaking in tongues, but the interpretation is beneficial to the group (Which is why interpretation of tongues is in the first grouping of manifestations, along with diversities of tongues, which is speaking multiple earthly languages by the unction of the Holy Ghost rather than by learning those languages through fleshly means.).

That last part was a lot to express in a posting. I want to see if you get (see, understand) the difference of Group vs. Individual edification before I try to suggest further importance of that distinction... in a way that would actually answer your question. Lol. Sorry that probably sounds like a cop-out to some.

I said I consider you as a friend for a few reasons:

1. I mean that I strive and hope for your well-being rather than destruction. (that is friendliness on my end towards you)
2. From what I understand, you HAVE what we're talking about regardless of any teachings or beliefs you hold concerning it. That actually makes you my BROTHER, which is more than friend, but it supports point #1.
3. On YOUR end towards me, I consider you a friend and friendly, not because you are currently a cessationist or not... but because you present yourself as someone who is actually (not "appears" to be) open to new information (and doesn't currently wish my demise).

Love in Jesus, and thanks for the conversation,
Kelby

What religion are you talking about here? What has a sexually perverted religion got to do with the gift of tongues?

Here is the whole reference in context:

"14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." (2 Corinthians 6:14-18).

When the phrase "come out from among them" is quoted in context, we clearly see that Paul was talking about some of the Corinthian believers being involved in the church and in pagan temple activities at the same time. The principle is that believers should not have one foot in the church and the other in the world. We are in the world but not of it. James says that a double minded man is unstable in all his ways. One cannot love Christ and the world at the same time, as one cannot have two masters. Either he will love the one and hate the other.

The passage is not talking about anyone coming out and being separate from a church group that does not conform to their personal ideals.

Seeing that the Anglican church has been mentioned in connection with allowing LGBT people as members, I need to say that there is a difference between allowing LGBT folk to participate in the church services in order for them to hear the Gospel along with the other sinners who come along, and actually embracing LGBT principles and practices.

I know that there are some holier than thou religious people who think that the Gospel of Christ doesn't apply to LGBT people.

I'm not sure that it is as much "fake tongues" as it is "using tongues at an inappropriate time, or in a way that isn't beneficial to others, or along side of innappropriate fleshly behavior, or promoting mis-use as something Godly".

But if you're talking about fake healings, false prophecies, staged 'miracles', etc. I don't have any problem labeling the false ones as fake.

I hope it's ok that I take the liberty to point out that even when speaking in tongues in a way that Paul was admonishing against (in 1 Corinthians 14:16-17,)he still acknowledges that speaking in tongues is still accomplishing it's good purpose of prayer to God.


Their misuse still cannot defile the spirit of God. Which concept is mirrored in 2 Timothy 2:13 KJV:

God is a better parent than us. We might secretly hide if our child is behaving in a truly embarrassing or cringe-worthy fashion. But God will still be there with his spirit bearing witness that "Yep, That's my child" no matter how sinfully we are misrepresenting him. That's why there are scriptures referring to "putting him to an open shame".

<--for our behaviours. <--for God's faithfulness.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

And again, I"m sorry if I keep answering rather than giving you space to pray and prepare for that initial reply. You just keep bringing up such good points!

My favorite 'canned prayer' on that topic (and not one that I can claim authorship of):


Love in Jesus,
Kelby

@PaulChristensen ,

I believe the gospel is for everyone. He paid the sin debt for ANY that believe. Jesus also said THY SINS ARE FORGIVEN,GO AND SIN NO MORE! You surely can choose to deny your gender,call yourself non binary or Lgbt, however you can NOT say God is ok with mlm or lesbians. This is perversion!

You cannot continue in the path of the devil and serve God. Furthermore you cannot be an effective witness of showing what a relationship with God is about if you are just as the sinner.When you make claim to pastor is your flock goats?

Grace makes no distinction of sins @KelbyofGod .
What he does expect is for us to lay aside the weight and the sins that beset us. We progress toward holiness and righteousness in him,not in, nor of ourselves. I know that there ARE SOME PEOPLE,that say Lord,LORD and their heart is far from him.

If this is your choices too then I have no need to read your posts. Btw Paul you are not the OP

Galatians 2:20 was the expression stated as it is evidenced from the book of Galatians and the deception that was upon some of them or perhaps all of them - was a return to the law as a means of pleasing God. In my own use of that meaning I was clearly deflecting from the verse itself in context - but what I have stated is that Romans 6:6 is the foundation and the outworking is Galatians 2:20.

“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." Galatians 2:20. It is that express meaning as a spiritual insight to Romans 6:6 that has been my clear meaning. So whilst it is an easy matter to draw a contextual meaning to the law as is expressed in verse 21 of Galatians 2 - I am surprised that you so easily take the escape route offered and refuse the meaning that is expressed plainly in many of the posts I have made in this thread - not least to yourself.

You began your posts into this thread here @#1,253 and here @#1,254. I don't need to tell you what you said.

I responded to @PaulChristensen @#1,256 and it was then that you made your @#1,257 post.

I responded to your @#1,257 post in this manner: @#1,258 post

To this post you said: @#1,259

All very amenable no doubt. YET - you have already moved from your original claim at #1,253 post and #1,254 which was a claim that we could fix ourselves by praying in tongues. An expressive form of Romans 8:26 and an allusion to 1 Corinthians 13:1. Perhaps more easily stated you removed from what I said - albeit that I am to receive what you say because you believe yourself to respect my words - but express that I am too exacting with them. Something I should no doubt think on.

Now after a circle of deflections you ask me if I know what the individual benefit of speaking in tongues is @#1,405 post. I leave you or others to read the entirety of the posts if you or anyone desires to do so - including the last post @#1,405 in full as herein partially quoted.

The one element of that @#1,405 post which does need pointing out is this element:

Brother, everything I received in solitary confinement in 1984 when I was suddenly and unexpectedly saved remains with me. I have lost nothing. Ten months of solitary confinement knowing the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in their persons and as one God. The Word of God in the Scriptures and the means to begin my walk of faith. Nothing is lost. How do you imagine that I could not understand the ministry of Christ into my life - when I could not remove myself into others company for ten months.

Why do you need to speak about destruction in your point 1 - as though you had either the power or the authority to destroy me?

I was not absolving any person of any of their sins... I was pointing out (in line with your statement that "Grace makes no distinction of sins") that your sins and my sins are no shinier in the eyes of God than theirs. It's a call to acknowledgement of how vile our own PERSONAL sins are...and to stop thinking myself a "better" sinner than someone whose sins are different than my own.

I was (and am) in appreciation of how clearly that prayer points out our own self-righteousness.


I was extremely judgmental towards those we are talking about until God showed me that If we're guilty of breaking the law in one area, we're guilty of breaking the WHOLE law. Which means we're just as guilty as the other guy. No matter how high in the sky we thrust our noses, we're all sinners in need of God's grace...and our own repentance.

Just wanted to be clear about that.

Still love ya all,
Kelby

I'll answer the last two questions first, just because they're easier to get out of the way. (and probably a bit more fun) Then I'll answer about "edifies himself". Because:

1. I consider you a Human on this earth and subject to 1 John 3:2 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 (just like the rest of us)...therefore I assume you also have only a partial understanding about the goodness of God (just like the rest of us).
2. I don't think you are suggesting that you are all-knowing about the things of God. Therefore it is prudent for us to watch for your areas of lack or error... lest you share them with us. (That was intended partly as humor)
3. If 10 months is enough to learn much about God, was God unable to teach you even more if given 12 months... or more? I work on the assumption that God ALWAYS has more that he can show us (including you). And he hasn't let me down yet.
4. If someone tells me "I've got the major stuff about God right...and have no expectation of God (or anyone else) revealing that I"m wrong on anything important". That usually sounds to me like they're admitting they don't think they'll learn anything important for the rest of their life. Then I remember a part of the definition of "stupid" as being "a lack of ability to learn". ( https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stupid )
5. I don't want to think of you as being stupid.

Only as a contrast to my intentions as a friend. An a enemy is not someone with the power or authority to destroy .... just the intent.


OK. back to the point of "fixing" ourselves through speaking in tongues:

Again I admit that "fix" is not the right word.

But here's why I said it:

IF "He the speaketh in an unknown tongue EDIFIETH himself" AND " if I speak in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth" THEN we can contribute to our own edification through prayer in the spirit IF that is something we can choose to do. AND, because Jude 20 commands us to build up ourselves "praying in the Holy Ghost" (the Spirit), it's not hard to conclude that Yes, we can choose to submit ourselves to that commandment. And that submission to prayer in the SPIRIT is also a form of "walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh" which means it is also a method of crucifying the flesh while we build ourselves up, in the Spirit.

Not sure how you'll interpret what I said, but there it is.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

So just to put your mind at rest. your last and penultimate comment.

• I attended a special needs school for seven years between 1969 and 1976. So I guess I am stupid by the Merriam Webster definition of stupid - especially when you consider that the diagnosis was educational subnormality. Seven years in loc parentis special needs care. And I am not being humorous. I don't mind being thought as stupid.

The rest I must simply ignore. Try answering a simple question in plain truth before expecting me to play along with what seems like a rather poor game of hide and seek. I don't play games with words.

Shalom brother.

The answer was at the end of the post. Summarized: I believe we have a responsibility to contribute to our own growth in the spirit along side our responsibility to crucify the flesh. Prayer in the Spirit (tongues) contributes to both. My apologies for answering it last.

I would not have considered you lacking in the slightest in terms of scholastic education. I would have guessed you highly educated because of your word usage and skill. Neither would I have thought less of you because of a label put upon you by a state educational system.

A friend and co-worker from my past, whom I considered more intelligent and inventive than myself, had to explain that to me when I commented that he must have done exceptionally well in school. He said (paraphrased) that schools have a single way of teaching that reaches the middle majority of students. Anyone falling outside of that particular learning style is deemed "has difficulty learning". The thing is, those who are told they are geniuses and those told they are dolts often share the same "non-conformative" learning style. But both are outcasts of the educational system. So it calls into question whether those labelled with "difficulty learning" are really lower, or higher, in intelligence than the 'educators'. (They'd labelled him a "difficult learner" and he'd tested poorly... LOL)

The only kind of 'stupid' I look down upon is the kind that the bible looks down upon:

Please note: I am not saying that you have rejected knowledge. I'm just clarifying that the voluntary 'stupid' of rejecting knowledge (especially Godly knowledge) is SO much worse...because it's VOLUNTARY! (so don't choose that one)

Hope you're having a good day, even if you never speak to me again because of my poor wording.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Whatever... I never said that God is okay with LGBT people. References in Romans make it clear that LGBT behaviour is an abomination to God. But it is not the unforgiveable sin. The Scripture says that all manner of sin and iniquity shall be forgiven of God. So LGBT conduct is just another sin in the general catalogue of the works of the flesh. Paul says that we should forsake the works of the flesh and to walk in the Spirit.

But by the same token, someone's personal life and their conduct is a matter between them and God. I am not the Holy Spirit. It is not my role to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment to come. It is my role to be faithful to the Lord in the way I live my own life in the Spirit and to preach the Gospel of Christ when I am given the opportunity.

It is the Gospel of Christ that is the power of God that leads to salvation for those who choose to believe it. Preaching the Gospel is not bashing LGBT people over the head with condemning Bible verses, and it is not telling them that God hates them and they are going to hell unless they repent. I think a lot of religious people's condemnation of LGBT people is nothing more that basic homophobia. An LGBT person is not a leper, and yet any professing Christians treat them as such. It is no wonder that LGBT people are very hard to reach with the Gospel. They have had to put up with constant condemnation from "Christians" all their lives, and so they think that all Christians are the same as these condemners.

So, you are welcome to go and find a church where everyone meets up with your ideals and where no LGBT person would dare come near it. Then you can quite happily fellowship with like-minded people and not get your hands dirty with sinful people who might need the Gospel as much as you do.

Wow! That really does show what God thinks of "holier than thou" people. It does right along with God resisting the proud ("Holier than thou), but giving grace to the humble.

A number of years ago, I got a toasted sandwich at a late-night food kiosk. While I was eating it I got into a conversation with a transvestite person. I was quite clear to him that I was not interested in any "action", and so we went on to have a very pleasant conversation in which he explained that he was a pimp for a group of prostitutes. An expensive Mercedes car went slowly by, and he told me that it was one of his customers. We saw the car stop, and out of a doorway appeared a prostitute, whom he nodded to, and she went over and got into the Mercedes and the car drove away. It was a unique event for me and very non-threatening. I found the "man" very personable and willing to chat, and he told me how the group of transvestites he associated with were very loyal and supportive to each other. It was their "club" and enjoyed having their characteristics in common. What impressed me was that he respected me and didn't try to influence me in any way, and in the same way, I didn't 'Bible-bash' him, but had just an ordinary person to person conversation on that street corner outside that food kiosk.

What this taught me was that I can mix with all types of people without compromising my own values, and not feeling that I have to force my values on others. But isn't that what Jesus did?

there is no such thing as LGBT people they are not a race of people it is an act of sin like drunkness and fornication. the only thing different between the sin of drunkness and the sin of homosexuality is the deception of self-proclaimed Christians to accept the false narrative of these sexual preferences as being more than that. LGBTQ is a lie. created out of abandonment of reality, cognitive dilemma, and a false narrative.

Okay... So, if an LGBT person asked you how he or she can be saved, what are you going to say?