Every “solution” to the problem of evil is itself evil

One thing I’ve noticed when the problem of evil is raised against Christians is that most believers go on defense in explaining why evil exists and how it does not negate the existence of God. There’s nothing wrong with this, but it’s an incomplete response.

We should be evaluating the proposed solutions to the problem of evil. In other words, let’s presuppose the existence of God. How would (or should) this God act, according to atheists? Put another way: what features would God have, concerning evil, if atheists could (from their perspective) will God into existence?

The atheist will say, for instance, that if God exists He would have to eradicate all evil. Okay, but this would destroy free will. Most people recognize free will is itself a virtue if for no other reason than that it allows us to do good, including to love. If God eliminates all human evil - and, with it, human free will - then He eliminates all good as well. Ironically, this act of eliminating evil would create more evil.

Automatons (which is exactly what humans would become) cannot do good, at least not out of some genuine desire to do it. They cannot love. This would be an act of evil.

But what about the really bad stuff, the atheist may say. Why can’t God eliminate the really terrible stuff like childhood cancer or brutal murders or years and years of abject suffering? Maybe this God, this figment of the atheist’s imagination, could just eliminate the really bad stuff and allow everything else.

First off, how do you draw the line between the really bad stuff and everything else? And second, if God were to eliminate SOME evil by intervening in human free will, then He would have to eliminate ALL evil (which gets back to the free will issue above).

God would have to eliminate even relatively benign evils like gossip, bad thoughts, forgetting to cover your mouth when you cough, etc.

If God were to draw an arbitrary line and allow some evil but eliminate others, isn’t that itself evil? Why prevent evil by divine fiat for some but not all? This solution is also evil.

Moreover, it would be a divine sort of discrimination. God would be treating some humans better than others by eliminating the suffering of some but not of all. All things being equal, treating people differently on purpose without a valid reason (and arbitrarily drawing a line between “unacceptable” and “acceptable” evil is certainly not valid) is discrimination, which is evil.

I suppose the ultimate solution would be for God to just snuff us all out. That’s one sure way to eliminate evil! Do I need to explain why this, also, is itself evil?

When you examine every possible solution put forth by atheists to the problem of evil, they are all themselves evil. Our only alternative is to seek explanations of why evil exists and how it is compatible with a loving and all-powerful God.

One thing we should let atheists know is that God does eradicate all evil in the lives of people who follow Jesus.. Of course there is a whole lot of correction that goes along with being made in his image, but what parent doesn correct his child?

Bad behavior that refuses correction will someday be eradicated another way.

Dear Kriswampler,
Christ will certainly not "snuff us all out" to destroy evil. Evil in this world is here for a purpose and once God's purpose for it has been satisfied, evil will no longer exist.

So what is God's purpose for creating evil?

To answer that question, one must have a proper understanding of the "big picture" of why this creation exists in the first place and why God created mankind as we are. This will take some time to explain so please bear with me.

Man's spiritual condition we have from birth is "marred". It is NOT a mistake by God. We were made that way on purpose so that our "flesh" will control us. That is why we become carnally minded and why Christ, while in a physical body, did not. Christ was spiritually perfect when He came in the flesh and this spiritual perfection is what empowered Him to overcome this carnal world and to never sin. But with mankind, we cannot overcome this world and we frequently sin as a result of our spiritual flaw.

It is not man's fault that we were created imperfect. God is responsible for our marred spiritual condition which causes us to sin.

Rom 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, ...

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

So why did God make us spiritually marred?

Since this Creation is for God's purpose of producing His offspring, He wants us to be "like" Him. And to be like Him, we must have a knowledge of "good and evil". God even created Satan to be our tempter and deceiver so that we would have a fuller experience of evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, ... I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Because of our spiritually marred and carnally minded condition, we ALL become sinful creatures.

Mankind's carnal nature is "hatred" towards God and it veils us from God. Because of such, we can't understand God nor do we want to seek His ways.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
On the other hand, Satan was created to fed upon the dust of the ground (Gen 3:14). The "dust of the ground" represents our carnal nature and that is why Satan works to destroy and deceive mankind.

When Adam and Eve were created spiritually marred, they quickly become carnally minded. God put Satan in the Garden to do his work of tempting Eve so that she would sin. Eve could not have possibly done anything but fall to his temptations. Eve even displayed the three causes of sin BEFORE she sinned.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eyes), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (pride of life), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

God, of course, knew Adam and Eve were carnally minded and would sin because He made them that way. And for this same reason, all of Adam & Eve's offspring sin as well. Mankind's sin was planned and caused by God so that we would experience evil. With God, "evil" is a tool that He uses for His good and righteous purposes. In this case, His purpose is to create His offspring who know good and evil.

But since mankind's sin spiritually separates us from God and because He wants children, He needed to create a pathway back to Himself for mankind. To accomplish that purpose, God the Father sent Christ to be our Savior and make this reconciliation:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

In our spiritually marred, carnally minded condition, NO PERSON can be saved. We have all sinned and the penalty of sin is death (not eternal hell). For this reason, all mankind must die. This is an absolute truth that cannot be broken. The only solution is for mankind to be "born again" from the death we all must pay.

Christ's work on the cross gave Him the legal authority to raise us from the grave and to give us this new life. He did not die on the cross to keep us from paying the penalty of sin. He died on the cross so that our spiritually marred vessel (which must be destroyed) can be made into a new spiritually perfect vessel.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

In our created spiritually marred condition, we all reject God and cannot "choose" Him. There is nothing good within mankind. We do not have the ability to make a "free will" choice to accept Christ. No man has that ability in our spiritually marred created condition. The only way we can "choose" Christ is for Christ to individually come to us FIRST (without our persmission) and change us from within. He starts His great work of conversion within us by giving us the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

When Christ does this spiritual work within us (gives us the earnest amount of the Holy Spirit and a measure of faith), we all accept Him as "Lord" - just as Paul "typed" for us on the Damascus Road, Acts 9:3-9. There are NO EXCEPTIONS.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Herein lays the GREAT mystery of the church (Eph 5:32). The Early Rain of the Spirit is only an "earnest amount" of the Holy Spirit and will not save us. Because of this partial measure of the Spirit, we remain spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) and controlled by our carnal nature. As a result, Satan can and does easily deceive us. We all follow this portion of the path because we all must live by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

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This portion of the path is mankind's "Day of Evil" and time of Great Tribulation:

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Prov 16:4 The LORD will make all to give an answer: yea, even for the evil of the Day of Evil.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

When Satan comes to a new believer (only the Early Rain), he masquerades as an "angel of light" (Christ).

2Cor 11:14-15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

We accept this deception because we are spiritually blind and don't yet have the ability to truly know Christ. Satan then feeds us his lies (leavened bread via his "ministers"), which we readily accept as the truth of Christ because his lies are pleasing to our carnal nature.

Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Satan's ministers hide "leaven" in the meal until the whole loaf is secretly leavened with Satan's lies. Since we all eat from this leavened loaf shortly after receiving the Early Rain, we all come under Satan's deceptions. And since the leaven is "hidden" in the loaf, we don't even know that Satan is deceiving us.

Christ explained this process again this way:

Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Unclean (evil) spirits represent Satan bringing his false truth to us. Since we remain spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, we cannot replace our false beliefs of the world with God's truth. One "evil spirit" leaves but comes back with seven more (represents the spirit of anti-Christ) since our house remains void of God's truth. Now, instead of "one evil spirit" within us, we now have EIGHT. The number eight spiritually represents a new spiritual condition. Our new spiritual condition is "worse than the first".

Paul calls this worsened spiritual condition the Man of Sin:

2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

After receiving the Early Rain, our deadly head wound to our Old Man (carnal nature) that came from the sword of Christ is healed because of Satan's deceptions.

Consider these verses below which teach on the spiritual term “sword”:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

The word "sword" is a spiritual symbol which represents the Word of God (Christ). Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God.

Water baptism is another symbol which sends the same spiritual message as Matt 26:52. When an individual is baptized in water, the immersion represents the death of their carnal nature (Old Vessel, Old Man). The ascension out of the water represents their new birth as a child of God in the Kingdom of Heaven. This great work of conversion (salvation) is accomplished by the Word of God (Sword/Christ).

After we receive the first blow to our "head" by the Sword of Christ, we remain spiritually blind and as a result, we are quickly deceived by Satan. His deceptions cause us to "fall away" and become spiritually "worse than before (Man of Sin). This "falling away" is a result of NOT solely approaching Christ by Faith (New Covenant) - we try to mix in our own "works" (Old Covenant). As a result, our deadly head wound by the Sword of Christ is healed and we remain a part of the Seven-Headed Beast (mankind). The spiritual death that we needed to pay to satisfy our sin debt remains unpaid and we remain under the Law.

Christ said mankind's carnal nature prefers "works" over "faith" alone:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

The Old Wine is a spiritual symbol for the Old Covenant (man's works) and the New Wine represents the New Covenant of Faith (Christ's works). When a new believer mixes "works" and "faith", they try to "serve two masters" and are left desolate (lost their salvation).

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

This event is called the "abomination of desolation" by Christ:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

"Seeing" the abomination of desolation is the same event taught by Paul when the Man of Sin is revealed (seen by the believer):

2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that Man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

After receiving the Early Rain and after coming under Satan's deceptions, we become "worse than before" (Man of Sin). At this point, we have truly "fallen away" and have returned to "works" (religion) for our salvation. We have experienced the Abomination of Desolation. This is the one and only sin that leads to our spiritual death (1John 5:16). And from this death, we cannot be renewed by repentance:

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

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The Doctrine of Free Will is the most common belief that causes us to "fall away". We use this false belief system to differentiate us from why unbelievers are worthy of "hell" and why believers are not. We falsely believe that we made the right "choice" from our supposed "free will" because we were smarter, wiser or just not as evil as those who rejected Christ. But in truth, we are not. It was ONLY because of Christ's work (Early Rain) within us that caused us to accept Christ as "Lord".

What I have stated above is part of the wide pathway that leads to destruction. We ALL MUST and WILL travel it since our vessel must be destroyed before we can receive a new vessel (be "born again").

Because a fallen away believer cannot be renewed by repentance, they will remain in this lost, spiritually worsened condition until either they physically die OR Christ comes to them a second time.

In this age, Christ is only working to save His Elect, the First-Fruits of the harvest of mankind. They have been chosen from the foundation of the world and are the ONLY ones who are going to be saved at this time.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

However, the rest of mankind has not been forgotten by Christ. Their salvation will come in the final age (Lake of Fire age). Since mankind's salvation is 100% the work of Christ, no man can change the timing of their own salvation. The Elect are saved now in this age. In the final age, all Gentiles will be saved next. Then after their "fullness" has come in, the remaining part of Israel will finally be saved.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Mat 19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

If a person has been chosen from the foundation of the world, Christ will not let them die in their sins. He will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is the same event the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost and it is the same event Paul "typed" for us when he received the Holy Spirit after being "in bed" for three days in Damascus. THIS IS THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST THAT IS COMMONLY TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE. When Christ comes to us a second time, He comes as a thief in the night to destroy the Man of Sin whom we have become. When this happens, the path that leads to destruction is complete and the new babe in Christ is born. It is at this point the chosen believer begins traveling the Narrow Path that leads to maturity as a son of God.

What I have stated above is an abbreviated summary of how Christ saves one of His chosen Elect in this age. They are the First-Fruits of His harvest of mankind.

And as I said earlier, Christ will not forget the rest of mankind and will NOT leave them to rot in the field. In the final age, at the end of the harvest season (Feast of Tabernacles), Christ will finish His work and bring in the full harvest of mankind. Then it will be testified to be true that ALL who died in Adam is the same ALL who will be made alive in Christ.

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as IN ADAM ALL DIE, EVEN SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

God does not fail and He never makes mistakes. What mankind is experiencing now is how God reproduces Himself in His children. This is the meaning of life that seems to elude most people.

Mankind is not restored to the Father because of our "will". We are restored to the Father because it is God's "will" for it to happen. God is not a respecter of persons. All mankind will be saved and we will all travel the same pathway for that salvation. The only difference is “when” we complete the pathway and God decided that from the foundation of the world to satisfy His own purposes.

One final point I want to make: End-time prophecy is teaching about the pathway that leads to conversion. All End-time verses (includes Mat ch. 24) should be applied spiritually "within" us and not out in the world as is commonly taught. When the Latter Rain falls on one of God's chosen Elect, it causes a spiritual earthquake with lightning and thunder and trumpets. Our worldly carnal paradigm is destroyed and we are given a new paradigm in Christ. At that point, the sun is darkened and the moon is turned to blood. As a result, we no longer receive the natural light of this world. We now receive "light" (truth of God) directly from Christ.

I could have included many other scriptures/parables that further support and explain what I have stated above but then this post would have turned into a book.

Joe

I understand your theology on this, and it's good for a man to ponder the mysteries of God.
Mind baffling isn't it?
May I suggest that the answer is found in genesis.
God made all of his creation good in fact very good. Not perfect as some would say it means.
Very good implies it was created as it is for his purpose to suit his means.
To cut to the short of it... God cannot duplicate himself.
God has always been and is...he is divine...holy, holy, holy,
If God duplicated himself there would be one flaw. That flaw would be created. Which God is not.
So therefore God cannot duplicate himself.
Jesus always was and is, the Holy Spirit always was and is. This is the trinity which is also found in the first scripture in Genesis.
In the beginning God (Elohim) is plural not singular. Made the heavens and the earth.
Atheist do not believe that there can be a being, entity, spirit that has no beginning and no end.
Man cannot wrap his mind around this, it didn't compute😉.
Evil is chaos, chaos is controlled by God. Also found in Genesis.
Evil in many scriptures is described as darkness,
God said let there be light before he made the sun. That light controlls the darkness.
The greater and the lesser to rule over.
Jesus said...be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect. This is what we should all strive for but being a creation we will never accomplish.
In Christ we are made perfect as God sees his son in us and we in Christ.

Sounds like Latter Rain doctrine...........

Here's my take:

Adam and Eve were created "innocent". They had no conception or awareness of evil prior to eating from the tree of knowledge.

The Scriptures say that they were both naked, the man and his wife, and they were not ashamed. (This was prior to them eating from the tree.)

After they ate, Adam and Eve's eyes "were opened" to the knowledge of good & evil, and they tried to hide their nakedness from God. Because they were now ashamed of themselves.

God's Law is the standard, but He never originally intended for man to live up to it. However, by eating from the tree of knowledge, Adam & Eve subjected themselves to that standard. Remember, God warned them that in the day they ate from that tree, they would surely die.

In Matthew 5, Jesus said that unless one's righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, that person will by no means enter the Kingdom of Heaven. He was making the point that no one can live up to God's standard and that he/she needs a Savior.

Paul wrote in Romans that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

I make the case that Adam & Eve already "fell short" even prior to the fall. What I mean is that, as I mentioned above, they were created "innocent". But that innocence didn't mean that they met God's standard. It just meant that He didn't judge them for their shortcomings because, prior to eating from the tree of knowledge, they didn't know what evil was (their eyes hadn't been opened yet). When Eve was tempted by the serpent, she had no reason to think that he was evil. However, it came down to who was she going to trust, God or the serpent? It wasn't until after she had eaten the fruit that she realized the deception. That's why Eve later said to God "The serpent beguiled (or deceived) me, and I ate".

$0.02

Just to clarify ----God did not create Satan ---that just is False Doctrine ----God Created Lucifer who was one of God's protecting angels --- ---Ezekiel 28 describes Lucifer becoming Satan -----Lucifer became Satan all by himself -and took the keys to rule on this earth from Adam ----because of wanting to be higher than God ------iniquity and pride set in ---all angels were given free will in choice -----God sent His Son to get the keys back from Satan to give man a chance to redeem himself ------

God only allows Satan to temp us ---he did not create Satan -----Satan won the warfare over us humans by duping the first 2 humans -----and there are still many today being duped by him ----God's Children have a way of escape ----but unbelievers are still in Satan's full grip as they are away from God ---

Simple explanation.

God is a JUST God. He causes it to rain on the just and the unjust. He is no respecter of persons.

As well, as you stated, FREE WILL is a precious gift from God to mankind. He will not override free will choices of man. However, when those choices cause harm to others, He is full able to make something good come from something evil. Faith is required. FAITH, BELIEF, TRUST!

I noticed the apparent 'discrepancy' between Genesis Chapters 1& 2's account of the order of creation wherein Chapter1 animals are created before man and Chapter2 animals are created after Adam and then brought before him to name them. Noting that there are never mistakes in God's Word, although many may mistake it, perhaps this might provide us clues speaking to the 'solution' to the problem of evil. Considering that, as I too quickly skimmed over the title and misread it to say ... "Every 'solution' to the problem of evil is evil itself," I was intrigued enough to think the OP might be presenting an idea I've been mulling over to click on it.... After all, I've always thought of evil as, inherently, self-destructive. Just recently, I came across commentary that grazed against this concept on the comparison of creation outside the garden (where Adam is created) and that within (where Adam is placed), and haven't shaken the idea as exactly invalid. As a matter of fact, the more I ponder it, i.e. the garden is kept by a flaming sword (to keep evil out of it??), the more and I wonder at the validity of it.

Dear pottersclay,
Thanks for your comments. I will respond to a few of them.

You said:
I understand your theology on this, and it's good for a man to ponder the mysteries of God. Mind baffling isn't it? May I suggest that the answer is found in genesis. God made all of his creation good in fact very good. Not perfect as some would say it means. Very good implies it was created as it is for his purpose to suit his means.

Mankind does ponder the mysteries of God but God does not reveal those mysteries to mankind:

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

The only ones who "understand" are children of God, a new creation. God no longer views them as being part of mankind. These people are Christ's Elect who have been converted and "born again". They are no longer spiritually blind but have been given "eyes that can see". They are the "few".

And yes, God made this creation "very good", not perfect in the holy or righteous sense but very good for His purpose of producing His offspring (children of God) who will be "like Him" knowing good and evil.

You said:
To cut to the short of it... God cannot duplicate himself. God has always been and is...he is divine...holy, holy, holy, If God duplicated himself there would be one flaw. That flaw would be created. Which God is not. So therefore God cannot duplicate himself. Jesu always was and is, the Holy Spirit always was and is. This is the trinity which is also found in the first scripture in Genesis. In the beginning God (Elohim) is plural not singular. Made the heavens and the earth.

I agree, God cannot duplicate Himself and I don't know of anyone who says differently. But "children" are not duplications, they are children. They can be spiritually the same, holy and without sin, but they will always be of lesser authority than their Father. Jesus is the Son of God and is of lesser authority than His God and Father. There are many scriptures which say so. But nonetheless, Jesus and the Father are "one", just as all of His children will be someday:

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

We are "one" because we have the Father's Spirit dwelling within us. That is the binding link which makes Christ and us "one" with the Father.

You said:
Evil in many scriptures is described as darkness, God said let there be light before he made the sun. That light controls the darkness.
The greater and the lesser to rule over. Jesus said...be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect. This is what we should all strive for but being a creation we will never accomplish. In Christ we are made perfect as God sees his son in us and we in Christ.

I don't know of evil ever being described as "darkness". Evil dwells in darkness but is not the "darkness". "Darkness" spiritually represents a place where God is not known by those who dwell there. Mankind dwells in darkness because we are spiritually blind and carnally minded. In this spiritual state, we cannot know God and are in fact, quite evil.

You said that should all strive to be "perfect" but that we will never accomplish it. That is true but if you are referring to only "mankind" . Mankind will never be perfect and that is one of the reasons why we must be "born again" and made into a child of God. Once that "conversion" happens, we will be perfect, not just in God's eyes, but perfect in fact. Once our salvation is complete, we will be "like God" ("one" with Him) and will never sin again.

Those who are "perfect" now, are God's children who have been baptized by the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain). They are converted (born again) and are without sin. The original marred vessel has been made into a new vessel.

So yes, as you said, "in Christ" we are made perfect.

Joe

Dear NotmebutHim,
I agree with much of what you stated above. God never intended for Adam and Eve to NOT sin. In fact, He caused them to sin by creating them spiritually marred. He even put Satan in the Garden to tempt and destroy them (which Satan did).

And as you said, mankind CANNOT live up to God's standard. The Law was given to prove to us that it cannot be done. Once we come to that realization, it will lead us to Christ who will do all the work of spiritually changing us so that we can live up to that standard. That is conversion and what it means to be "born again". All mankind will someday be changed from being a child of the Devil, to being a child of God. This is 100% the work of Christ who is the only one who can change us spiritually. It is for that reason the Father sent Christ into the world:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Joe

I like this saint, always good to ponder the things of God. I don't discredit anything you have posted here.
Iron sharpens iron and will paste this on my search and see list.
As darkness being evil I refer to "men like darkness therefore their deeds are evil"
Darkness is not the opposite of light but the lack of it. Which may prove more to your point you posted.
But the darkness in genesis is also termed chaos which the Lord is not about.

Dear studentoftheword,
If God did not create Satan, who did? Here is what scripture says:

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

All things come into existence by the direct "will" and work of the Father. Satan is no exception. In fact, nothing happens within this creation that is not caused by God. God never just "allows" anything to just happen, He causes it to happen, even the evil in this world.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Consider this verse below:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Mankind has no power to deviate from God's "will". His "will" rules supreme. The supposed "free will" of mankind is a false teaching and an illusion. God is Spirit and He accomplishes His "will" by doing His work within mankind's heart. And mankind's heart cannot perceive the work that God is doing there.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Do you believe this verse?

Joe

Dear pottersclay,
Yes, God is not a God of confusion (chaos). Darkness represents that confusion (chaos) because those who dwell there are spiritually blind and cannot understand God. For this reason, mankind who dwells in darkness, cannot understand scripture. Christ (the Word of God) is veiled from them. In order to understand scripture, Christ must come to each of us and heal our spiritual blindness (give us eyes that can see). Only then does the truth of scripture open up to us.

So when does Christ heal our blindness? Here is what scripture says:

Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response from the Apostles is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Since Christ is the Word of God, He teaches us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer in "type" by healing a blind man. This "type" is the same "type" which Christ uses with the Old Testament events to teach His spiritual truths.

In verses 23, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (understanding). This is the same time when an unbeliever is "called out from the world" and becomes a Christian. After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a spiritual symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this spiritual aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down at the earth. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a “type” of a Called and Chosen believer.

Joe

Lucifer was created by God ------Lucifer was one of God's holy angels -a cherub Angel at that they were Special angels who guarded God's domain ----------Lucifer became Prideful ---he wanted to be higher than God -----and Lucifer had a name change all by himsellf -----Satan means adversary ------so Lucifer created his own name of adversary -----which is Satan -----


Isaiah 14 ---

“How you have fallen from heaven,
O [b]star of the morning [light-bringer], son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the ground,
You who have weakened the nations [king of Babylon]!
13
“But you said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the remote parts of the north.
14
‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’


Ezekiel 28

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.[b]
Your settings and mountings[c] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”

Dear studentoftheword,
Just as Adam and Eve were purposely created spiritually marred, so was Satan. Satan fell because it was God's "will" for him to fall. Nothing happens in God's creation that He does not cause. Satan was created to be the "crooked serpent" who tempts, deceives and destroys mankind. Satan is used by God for this purpose. Look at these verses:

2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

So how did God move David to number Israel? We don't have to guess. Scripture says that God used Satan for this spiritual work.

1 Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

God also uses "evil spirits" for the same purpose:

Judg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

As I said, nothing happens in this creation that God does not cause to happen. He is in full control and is on "PLAN A" and will be until He has accomplished all that He said He will do.

The verses below proclaim His ultimate goal for this creation and then God will be "all in all" and the ages will come to an end:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

All mankind and even Satan and the fallen angels will be restored to the Father when God's work, through Christ, is completed. He is God and He will have all His desires:

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Joe

You can believe that if you want to ----God did not create Lucifer to become Satan ----God gave all Angels and Humans Free Will to choose -----if we didn't have free will we would be God's Puppets just pulled on a string ----Lucifer had a choice ----to be come prideful or do what God created him to do and that was Protect what is God's ------Rebellion is a choice ---other Angels joined Satan in their rebellion so what --your blaming God for that to ------they didn't have a choice -----I think you need to study scripture more ----that is my view on that -----

If you want to blame God for our free choices DISOBEY HIM ---well you can certainly do that ---THAT IS YOUR FREE CHOICE To Do THAT ___BUT THAT IS NOT GOD"S WILL FOR YOU TO THINK THAT ----THAT IS YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE --THAT IS SATAN PUTTING EVIL THOUGHTS IN YOUR MIND

and that how I see that

I say -----All your doing is playing the blame game ----saying it is God;s will to Sin when it is a choice to sin or not ----

Your just one who does't like taking responsibility for your own actions and like to blame God saying it is His Will ----Your wrong and that is how I see that -----

whaaaaa?

somebody has too much spare time

Dear studentoftheword,
Your beliefs are contradicted by the verses I posted. With your understanding, man's supposed "free will" is out of God's control and He must be on plan B, C, D, ... and so on and so on. But God is not like mankind and never makes mistakes nor does His desires go unfulfilled.

There are no verses of scripture that say mankind has a "free will". In fact, there are many verses which say just the opposite. God is in full control of mankind's "will" and we have no ability to do differently. Look at the verses below. Can't you see that they contradict what you believe?

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Ecc 3:1 To everything there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.

Exd 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

1 Cor 1:28-29 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Joe