The Lord's Day (Rev. 1:10) - Sabbath (7th) or Sunday (1st) or Eschatological day or something else?

It generally means you are rushing to conclusions before taking the time to really consider what is being said or asked or presented. Please see Proverbs 18:13,17 in cautionary advice. In other words, please go a little more slowly, and really think about what is being said, asked, or presented. I ask in charity. Thank you for participating in the poll, and even for the comments. Dialogue is always welcome, evidence always cherished, and persons are always loved, and so forth.

That is incorrect. The history of the scripture is true from the beginning and accurate to the least detail (Psalms 12:6-7, 119:160). God in the beginning set the 7th day and the week itself. In Exodus (several thousand years later), God again, stated the 7th day and the week again. The Jews and even Gentiles that sojourned with them (like the mixed multitudes), kept the time, and God was with them the whole time, in the wilderness and into the promised land. In the time of Solomon, even the Queen of Sheba took that same pattern back to her own country. Jesus kept the 7th day Holy and the rest of the week as His Father gave him (John 15:10). In the book of Acts 15, James states that Moses was read in every city on the sabbath (Acts 15:21). The Disciples, Paul, etc kept the 7th day all throughout the NT, as cited previously. History records that the Christians kept sabbath ever since in the same time, as the Jews since that time, even being spread around the globe.

People that specialize in chronology say that no time has been lost, and the same week has come down since creation:

The US Naval Observatory is on record stating:

https://ia601700.us.archive.org/19/...vatory - Sabbath - Time Has Not Been Lost.gif



The Royal Greenwhich Observatory is on record as stating:


https://ia803202.us.archive.org/17/...enwich - Sabbath - Time Has Not Been Lost.gif



Chronology in scripture is sure:

https://archive.org/details/age-of-the-earth

God even foretold that the same cycle is kept in the New Heavens and Earth (Isaiah 66:22-23).

Mankind is not in charge of keeping track of time (though we do do that). God is, and God makes it known in several ways.

If "Muddying the waters" is the goal of some, it is not my goal, but rather my goal is to clarify, make known the truth, present documented evidence (and I have much more for the Christians from the time of the Apostles onward throughout history). I also have documentation on the Romans if you need that.

As for instance:

The Roman Historical record of their dealings with Jews:

http://thesourcehh.org/sabbath.htm#books

http://www.academia.edu/4686453/SABBATH_IN_THE_EAST

Romans:

S. Julii Frontini (c. AD 40 - AD 103), written in C. AD. 84, see - https://archive.org/details/libriquatuorstra00fronuoft

Libri Quator; Strategematicon; cum notis integris; Francisci Modii, Godescalci Stewechii, Petri Scriverii, & Samuelis Tennulii. His accedunt, cum P. Scriverii, tum aliorum Doctorum ineditae observationes. Curante Francisco Oudendorpio, Qui & suas adnotationes, variasque MStorum lectiones adjecit. Editio Altera, multo auctior & emendatior. Lugduni Batavorum, Apud Sam. et Joann. Luchtmans, MDCCLXXIX [1779].

"XVII. Divus Augustus Vespasianus Judaeos 54 Saturni die, quo 55 eis nefas est quidquam seriae rei agere, adortus superavit. ...

...54 Saturni die] Sic & Pompejus Hierosolyma expugnavit, quia Judaei nolebant se defendere Sabbato, Dione teste in pompejo. Sabbatum quia praecipua caeremonia colebant, etiam jejunio sacrasse [ut ait Justinus 1 [Page 178-179] XXXVI. C. 2.). ..." Page 178-179 - https://archive.org/stream/libriquat...e/178/mode/1up
https://archive.org/stream/libriquat...e/179/mode/1up

A Google Translated rendition:

""17. Augustus, Vespasian, the Jews on the day of Saturn, 54, 55 in which it is illegal for them to do anything serious matter, attacked them, and overcame them. ...

... Saturday, 54] Thus Pompey captured Jerusalem, because the Jews refused to defend himself on a Saturday, a witness in the Dio Pompejo. Sabbath worship ceremony for the chief, even fasting sacrasse [as the Justin 1 [Pages 178-179] 36. C. 2). ... ""

Cassius Dio (AD 155 – AD 235)

Dio's Roman History III

Dio's Roman History with an English Translation by Earnest Cary, Ph.D. on the basis of the version of Herbert Baldwin Foster, Ph.D. In Nine Volumes, III; London: William Heinemann; New York: The Macmillan CO. MCMXIV [1914].

Battle of c. 63 BC

"... [Page 142-144; Internally Page 125-127] Most of the city, to be sure, he took without any trouble, as he was received by the party of Hyrcanus; but the temple itself, which the other party had occupied, he captured only with difficulty. For it was on high ground and was fortified by a wall of its own, and if they had continued defending it on all days alike, he could not have got possession of it. As it was, they made an exception of what are called the days of Saturn, and by doing [Page 142-144; Internally Page 125-127; Greek text is inbetween; Page 126] no work at all on those days afforded the Romans an opportunity in this interval to batter down the wall. The latter, on learning of this superstitious awe of theirs, made no serious attempts the rest of the time, but on those days, when they came round in succession, assaulted most vigorously. Thus the defenders were captured on the day of Saturn, without making any defence, and all the wealth was plundered. The kingdom was given to Hyrcanus, and Aristobulus was carried away.

This was the course of events at that time in Palestine; for this is the name that has been given from of old to the whole country extending from Phoenicia to Egypt along the inner sea. They have also another name that they have acquired: the country has been named Judaea, and the people themselves Jews. I do not know how this title came to be given them, but it applies also to all the rest of mankind, although of alien race, who affect their customs. This class exists even among the Romans, and though often repressed has increased to a very great extent and has won its way to the right of freedom in its observances. They are distinguished from the rest of mankind in practically every detail of life, and especially by the fact that they do not honour any of the usual gods, but show extreme reverence for one particular divinity. They never had any statue of him even in Jerusalem itself, but believing him to be unnamable and invisible, they worship him in the most extravagant fashion on earth. They built to him a temple [Page 143-145; Internally Page 127-129; Greek text on Page 128] that was extremely large and beautiful, except in so far as it was open and roofless, 1 and likewise dedicated to him the day called the day of Saturn, on which, among many other most peculiar observances, they undertake no serious occupation. ..." [Pages 142-145; Internally Pages 125-129; Greek text is inbetween; Page 126,128] - https://archive.org/stream/L053Cassi.../n141/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/L053Cassi.../n143/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/L053Cassi...y+of+Saturn%22

Dio's Roman History V

Dio's Roman History with an English Translation by Earnest Cary, Ph.D. on the basis of the version of Herbert Baldwin Foster, Ph.D. In Nine Volumes, V; London: William Heinemann LTD; Cambridge, Massachusetts Harvard University Press. MCMLV [1955].

Battle of c. 36 BC

"... [Page 398; Internally Page 387]The Jews, indeed, had done much injury to the Romans, for the race is very bitter when aroused to anger, but they suffered far more themselves. The first of them to be captured were those who were fighting for the precinct of their god, and then the rest on the day even then called the day of Saturn.1 And so excessive were they in their devotion to religion that the first set of prisoners, those who had been captured along with the temple, obtained leave from Sosius, when the day of Saturn came round again, and went up into the temple and there performed all the customary rites, together with the rest of the people. These people Antony entrusted to a certain Herod to govern ..." [Page 398; Internally Page 387] - https://archive.org/stream/L082Cassi.../n398/mode/1up

Dio's Roman History VIII

Dio's Roman History with an English Translation by Earnest Cary, Ph.D. on the basis of the version of Herbert Baldwin Foster, Ph.D. In Nine Volumes, VIII; London: William Heinemann; New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons. MCMXXV [1925].

Destruction of Jerusalem; AD 70. [even up to the time of Cassius Dio]

"... [Page 281; Internally 271] Thus was Jerusalem destroyed on the very day of Saturn, the day which even now the Jews reverence most. From that time forth it was ordered that the Jews who continued to observe their ancestral customs should pay and annual tribute of two denarii to Jupiter Capitolinus. ..." [Page 281; Internally Page 271] - https://archive.org/stream/L176Cassi.../n280/mode/1up

Continuing the previous thought:

Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (AD 56 - after AD 117)

The Histories of Tacitus; Books III, IV, And V. with introduction and notes by A. D. Godley, M.A. Fellow of Magdalen College, Oxford. London Macmillan and Co., Limited; New York: The Macmillan Company. 1907.

Historarium Lib. V. [Line 15 and onward]

"... [Page 148; Internally Page 127; IV. Line 15; Beginning 3rd Word] alii honorem eum Saturno haberi, seu principia religionis tradentibus Idaeis, quos *** Saturno pulsos et conditores gentis accepimus, seu quod de septem sideribus, quis res mortales reguntur altissimo orbe et praeceipua potentia stella Saturni feratur ac pleraque caelestium vim suam et cursus setptenos per numeros compleant. ..." [Page 148; Internally Page 127] - https://archive.org/stream/histories.../n148/mode/1up

"... [Page 290; Internally 269] Notes, V. Chap. 4. ... 17. Saturno: the Greeks and Romans had adopted the Egyptian custom of naming days after the planets, and the day of Saturn corresponded to the Jewish Sabbath. ..." [Page 290; Internally 269] - https://archive.org/stream/histories.../n290/mode/1up

English translation – Sourced - http://www.eliyah.com/lunarsabbath.html

“... They are said to have devoted the seventh day to rest, because that day brought an end to their troubles. Later, finding idleness alluring, they gave up the seventh year as well to sloth.

Others maintain that they do this in honor of Saturn; either because their religious principles are derived from the Idaei, who are supposed to have been driven out with Saturn and become the ancestors of the Jewish people; or else because, of the seven constellations which govern the lives of men, the star of Saturn moves in the topmost orbit and exercises peculiar influence, and also because most of the heavenly bodies move round their courses in multiples of seven. ...”

Even Josephus lived during the Roman occupation of Judaea and has a pretty good record of chronology.

Did it say anywhere that the day (24 hrs) was longer, or is it possible that the daylight portion (normally 12 hours) of the 24 was longer than normal, with a shorter night (like in Alaska, North and South Poles)? Also, did you read the counterpart of the sundial in reverse in 2 Kings 20:11; Isaiah 38:8? Also, we have the record of both events, and chronology takes into account those events as recorded. Just because the daylight portion of the day was longer does not displace time. It only displaces light and dark in that day (24 hrs). I hope that has been clarified for you and all.

Most of the "muddying the waters" are simple atheistic (or Bible skeptics) arguments against the scripture and are easily shown to be spurious, or non-existence issues.

That is again the misunderstanding of when "worship" takes place. It is to be 24/7/365. The issue of the OP is in regards what day is "the Lord's day" as identified in scripture. The topic of the OP is not even discussing what takes place so much upon that day, such as the "rest" verses common labour of the other 6 days, however, I am glad we can discuss it here anyway.

Actually the text in Revelation 1:10 doesn't say "the day of the Lord". It says "the Lord's day", which is even in a different construct in koine Greek and English from "the day of the Lord".

Consider the language itself, “τηG3588 T-DSF κυριακηG2960 A-DSF ημεραG2250 N-DSF”, as the word "κυριακη" (transliterated "kuriake") is an Adjective - Dative - Singular - Feminine., thus used as a 'possessive' ("of", see 1 Corinthians 11:20, "the Lord's supper"), and not like the phrase "day of the Lord" (ἡμέρα κυρίου) which is in the genitive masculine (see 2 Peter 3:10, &c; see also so called septuaginta (lxx) uses), which John calls the "great day of God Almighty” (Revelation 16:14). Revelation 1:10 - I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Revelation 1:10 - εγενομην εν πνευματι εν τη κυριακη ημερα και ηκουσα οπισω μου φωνην μεγαλην ως σαλπιγγος

Revelation 1:10 - I wasG1096 inG1722 the SpiritG4151 onG1722 theG3588 Lord'sG2960 day,G2250 andG2532 heardG191 behindG3694 meG3450 a greatG3173 voice,G5456 asG5613 of a trumpet,G4536

Revelation 1:10 - εγενομηνG1096 V-2ADI-1S ενG1722 PREP πνευματιG4151 N-DSN ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF κυριακηG2960 A-DSF ημεραG2250 N-DSF καιG2532 CONJ ηκουσαG191 V-AAI-1S οπισωG3694 ADV μουG1473 P-1GS φωνηνG5456 N-ASF μεγαληνG3173 A-ASF ωςG5613 ADV σαλπιγγοςG4536 N-GSF

Isaiah 58:13 - "the Lord's holy day", the seventh day of the week, the sabbath of the Lord.

Isaiah 2:12, 13:6,9, 34:8 – “the Day of the LORD”, the final eschatological climaxing day:

Deut. 31:17-18, 1 Sam. 3:12, 8:18, 1 Ki. 22:25, 22:35, 2 Chr. 18:24, 18:34, Job 3:3-4, 21:30, Psa. 110:5, Isa. 2:11-12, 17, 20,3:7, 3:18, 4:1-2, 5:30, 7:18,21,23, 10:20,27,32, 11:10-11,16, 12:1,4, 13:6,9,13, 17:4,7,9, 19:18-19,21, 23-24, 20:6, 22:12,20,25, 23:15, 24:21, 25:9, 26:1, 27:1-2,12-13, 28:5,19, 29:18, 30:23,25, 31:7, 34:8, 52:6, 58:5, 61:2, 63:4, 66:8, Jer. 1:10, 4:9, 25:33, 30:8, 31:6, 39:17, 46:10, 49:22,26, Lam. 1:12, 2:1,21-22, Eze. 7:7,12,19, 13:5, 22:24, 24:27, 27:27, 29:21, 30:3,9,18, 38:14,19, 39:11,22, 48:35, Hos. 1:5,11, 2:16,18,21, 5:9, 9:5 , Joel 1:15, 2:1-2,11, 2:31, 3:14,18, Amos 1:14, 2:16, 3:14, 5:18,20, 8:3,9-10,13, 9:11, Oba. 1:8,15, Mic. 2:4, 3:6, 4:6, 5:10, 7:11-12, Nah. 3:17, Hab. 3:16, Zeph. 1:7,8,9,10,14,15,16,18, 2:2-3, 3:8,11,16, Zech. 2:11, 3:9,10, 9:16, 11:11, 12:3,4,6,8,9,12, 13:1,2,4, 14:1,3, 14:4,6,7,8,9,13,20,21, Mal. 3:2,17, 4:1,3,5, Matt. 7:22, 10:15, 11:22,24, 12:36, 24:36,50, 25:13, Mark 6:11,13:32, Luke 6:23, 10:12, 17:24,30,31, 21:34, John 6:39,40,44,54, 8:56, 11:24, 14:20, 16:23,26, Rom. 2:5,16, 13:12, 1 Cor. 1:8, 3:13, 5:5, 2 Cor. 1:14, Php. 1:6,10, 2:16, 1 Thes. 5:2,4, 2 Thes. 1:10, 2:2,3, 2 Tim. 1:12,18, 4:8, Heb. 10:25, Jam. 5:5, 1 Pet. 2:12, 2 Pet. 2:9, 3:7,10,12, 1 John 4:17, Jude 1:6, and Rev. 6:17, 16:14, 18:8.

In the rest of Isaiah, when he refers, by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, to "the Day of the LORD", it is always in a differing phrase and context. See - Isaiah 2:12, 13:6,9, 34:8.

Others say it like this:

"the day of the LORD”

Jeremiah 46:10
Lamentations 2:22
Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3
Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31, 3:14
Amos 5:18,20
Obadiah 1:15
Zephaniah 1:7,8,14,18, 2:2,3, 14:1
Malachi 4:5
Acts 2:20
1 Corinthians 5:5
2 Corinthians 1:14
1 Thessalonians 5:2
2 Peter 3:10

"the day of their calamity"
Deuteronomy 32:35

"the day of vengeance"
Proverbs 6:34

"the day of the LORD's anger"
Lamentations 2:22

"day of the LORD's vengeance"
Isaiah 34:8

"the day of vengeance of our God"
Isaiah 61:2

"the day of vengeance"
Isaiah 63:4

"the day of the LORD's wrath"
Zephaniah 1:18

"Day of God"
2 Peter 3:12

"great day of God Almighty"
Revelation 16:14

The language is different, as shown in Isaiah 58:13, as compared to Isaiah 2:12, 13:6,9, 34:8. Even John in Revelation makes the same distinction, between "the Lord's day" (Rev. 1:10; "Lord's": Adjective-Dative-Singular-Feminine, acting as a possessive, see 1 Cor. 11:20, "day": Noun-Dative-Singular-Feminine) and "that great day of God Almighty" (Rev. 16:6, "day": Noun-Genetive-Singular-Feminine and "God Almighty": Noun-Genetive-Singular-Masculine). In 1 Cor. 1:8, "day" is Noun-Dative-Singular-Feminine, and Lord Jesus Christ, is Noun-Genetive-Singular-Masculine.

There is a difference between the Adjective and it's use, and the noun and it's use, as well as a difference in the timing of those days

Your statement assumed (before evidence presented) that the phrase "the Lord's day" was "the day of the Lord". No evidence was provided for that assumption, and therefore, I cannot agree with that assumption without evidence.

To equate "the Lord's Day" (Rev 1:10) with "the day of the LORD" is not only totally absurd, but shows a serious lack of spiritual discernment. What we have been seeing recently on Christian forums are bizarre and whacky ideas being pulled out of thin air and presented as "Bible exposition". This is as bad as the Fake News which pours out of the Leftist media.

Yes, that reply was just given. I never skirt anything. Thank you for your patience.

One question: Do I have to worship on the correct day to be saved?

Worship must take place very day, 24/7/365. If a person doesn't worship God every day of the week, then are they truly 'saved'? Wouldn't that mean that on those days (or day) that they worship something else it is violation of the 1-4 commandments?, which would be sin (1 John 3:4), and Jesus came to "destroy the works (sin) of the devil" (1 John 3:8).

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of the word "worship". There is a difference between "worship" and a gathering of a body of believers (church) at any time (day, night, 1-7), and even a difference in the 'rest' vs 'labour'. Worship involves all our thoughts, speech and actions of every moment. Either we are worshipping God, or another in each of those moments.

God is the Judge of your salvation, not humans that are equally sinful. You need to be saved every day and every second of each day, and that comes by knowing Jesus. Knowing your Lord, Knowing your creator, knowing your saviour, and your friend. Jesus has done all and if you love Him it will be seen in you.

Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Jn_5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

keeping the commandments isn't to be saved but because you are saved.

I always found the connection between John 14:15 and Exodus 20:6 powerful and poignant, "love me and keep my commandments", but it begins with Grace, "I AM the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out", "Mercy" (Exodus 20:2,6).

If God askes you to do something, should you do it? Or ignore God because of tradition?

when reading the old testament i see a God that wanted to be gracious and merciful, wanting to show great blessings on His people but they kept disobeying the law and doing things their sinful way. God hasn't changed and He is wanting to bless us today. The world is becoming more and more open and accepting of sin (as it was in the time of Noah), i can't see Jesus allowing the world to go much longer.
Isa_12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
Act_5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Rom_6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

I am still looking for definitive guidance. However, God knew there would be the need for some folks to work on Sunday (police,doctors,nurses,etc) and therefore I am beginning to believe allows for one to adopt Wednesday (or another day) as Sunday and keep it Holy. Thus the reference to the day (designated by individual selection) sabbath and keep it Holy. I suggest playing golf on Sunday would not fit the thought here.
The Bible says in no less that 14 places....use common sense, apply common sense, don't forget common sense, etc.

I'll answer you directly, since no one wants to answer MY question directly, apparently.

Yes, one ought to obey God rather than men. No, one should not disobey God because of tradition.

But there are now some aspects of the OT that are themselves vain traditions that we are not bound by. Physical circumcision. Temple sacrifices.

If you want me to worship on a certain day, you need to prove to me - Scripturally - that this is actually what I as a modern Gentile Christian am called to do.

And THEN you will have to tell me why this SCRIPTURE somehow does not apply:

Rom_14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

This is how I understand scripture.

Paul tells us we should go along with anyone who truly feels it is God's way to change the Sabbath that God created at the beginning of our time. I don't think those people have actually changed creation as would be necessary if they changed the day of the Sabbath, but what is necessary for them is their faith in Christ, not their faith in a seventh day Sabbath, so for their sakes we should honor their misunderstanding.

God asks us to obey the law, not the letter of the law but the spirit of the law. It would be obedience of the letter of the law to deny help to people on the Sabbath who need it as doctors, police, etc. do, but they obey the spirit of the law and offer their help on the Sabbath.

Yes common sense is important, and the devil will cause people to become extreme about keeping the sabbath so they lose the blessing or he will cause people to ignore it completely.

the Jews in Jesus day had made so many laws around how to keep the sabbath holy that it was a burden and not the way God intended it to be.

The Sabbath is a gift for man.
The Sabbath is Saturday and we can not change what God has made Holy.
If work needs to be done on the Sabbath then God understands, but if we can set aside that day we should.

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God winks at peoples ignorance, and salvation isn't about being perfect at keeping a law. But love for God will motivate a true heart to obey God and honour His laws of love. Faith in Christ without works is dead.. So to say i love Jesus and disobey His commands continually is not true faith or love. Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jesus will do all to make up for our failings, but that does not mean we should continue in sin that grace may abound.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
God has commanded all to keep the Sabbath holy. It is our choice what we do with that?

I don't know if you're a Judaizer or not, I'm just saying there are plenty of them who say the "Lord's Day" is the Saturday Sabbath and if you don't observe it you aren't saved.

First off, I dont do polls,so dont request I do.

All the word is plainly spoken and the SCRIPTURES have been addressed.

God did indeed rest on the Sabbath day after creation.
The ten commandments do say ,Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy.
(Holy means dedicated or consecrated ( made or declared sacred) to God)

Paul did INSTRUCT believers to not judge one another for personal convictions,but to let each be FULLY PERSUADED in his own mind.
We shall ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give account of himself to God.

The First Day of every month in Rome was the "Emperors Day" so being faithful followers of Jesus Christ, the Disciples named the First Day of every week, the day Jesus rose on, the Lord's Day.

Quite simple really.