The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

Unless you did.

It's so confusing. ARE YOU THE BODY OF CHRIST, OR THE BRIDE OF CHRIST OR THE WEDDING GUESTS IS THIS PRE TRIB OR IS THIS POST TRIB IS THIS JUST THE CHURCH OR ALL OF GODS CHOSEN PEOPLE FROM THE BEGINNING.

You all jump from one thing to the other depending on the situation and DEPENDING ON WHO HAS WHAT BELIEF FOR WHAT PART BUT NONE OF YOU AGREE WITH EACH OTHER. THEN AGAIN HOW COULD YOU AS NOTHING IS WRITTEN. AND SINCE NOTHING IS WRITTEN ANYONE CAN FOLLOW AND IT JUST GOES FROM ONE SPECULATION TO HIS SPECULATION TO HER SPECULATION BACK TO HIS SPECULATION

MUDDY WATER. BABEL. CONFUSION. HATH GOD SAID OR HATH GOD SAID NOT. BUT ANYONE WHO READS THIS THREAD WILL SEE THERE IS NO WHERE TO GO TO FIND GODS STAMP UPON IT BECAUSE FOR ANYTHING TO BE GODS TRUTH


IT IS WRITTEN. IT WOULDN'T MAKE VOID OTHER WORDS OF GOD. IT WOULD BRING ABOUT UNITY TO THE WORD AND NOT CONFLICT. IT WOULD FLOW AS THE SIMPLICITY OF CHRIST. IT WOULDN'T TAKE THE WISDOM AND EXPLANAIONS OF MAN TO FIND IT. IT WOULDN'T GO AGAINST THE PRINCIPLES OF GOD. IT WOULDN'T GO AGAINST THE TEACHINGS OF GOD. IT WOULDN'T TWIST THE WORDS OF GOD....

So just keep PUTTING forth those beliefs and I will keep putting forth the WORDS OF GOD AND WHAT IS WRITTEN SO THAT THIS APOSTASY IS SHOWN AS IT IS.

Matthew 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Revelation 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

BY YOUR STANDARDS THIS CITY WOULD BE THE CHURCH

17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

I AGREE 100 PERCENT. I ADMIT I CAN NOT UNDERSTAND THE PRE TRIB APOSTASY THEORY AT ALL. NOT FOR THE ETERNAL LIFE OF ME. THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS NEVER LED ME IN THAT DIRECTION NOT ONE TIME. AWAY FROM IT ALWAYS. ALL THAT IS WRITTEN SPEAKS AGAINST IT. BUT LIKE YOU SAID...

WHAT I DISAGREE WITH IS GOD TAKING ALL THOSE WITH KNOWLEDGE AND WISDOM AWAY AND LEAVING IT ALL UP TO TWO WITNESSES.

YOU CAN ASK EVERY GENERAL OR LEADER OF EVERY ARMY THAT HAS EVER WALKED THE FACE OF THE EARTH AND THIS THEY WOULD ALL AGREE ON, YOU DON'T SEND THE SOLDIERS TO PARTY ELSEWHERE LEAVING ALL THE HELPLESS WHEN THE BATTLE BEGINS.


IT IS THE FULL HEIGHT OF IGNORANCE.

IT DOESN'T WORK WITH WHAT IS WRITTEN.

Firstfruits.

Means they are harvested and " in the barn" so to speak.

It says they are in heaven, and they are.
The mt sion in verse 1, is the mt sion in heaven.
They are pictured in heaven in rev 14

Yes that thought carries on thru the entire passage. Bravo.

Good grief man no. There are the 144,000 Israelite preacher commandos, those who believe because of them (exponentially growing "I believed and therefore I spoke"), and themselves testifying. The Bible which will verify the events that are occurring. Angels preaching the eternal gospel from Heaven.

Yes the casualties of the antichrist will be many however Salvation will come to untold multitudes.

He mentions it in Revelation 20. There's many thing one book has, and another book does not have. Even the gospels contain bits of different information the other 3 gospels do not have.

A grave is anywhere the dead are. Heaven is a grave for saved souls. Hades is a grave for unsaved souls plus Revelation 20 speaks of the unsaved dead coming from death and the sea, both types of graves for the unsaved dead.

Graves for bodies are also in the sea as well as traditional under ground graves. Some graves are caves where Christ was for a few days. There are many different types of graves. Even where one's ashes are after the body is burned is a type of grave.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

We have different ideas on the understanding of Heb 12, 12-24

I carefully used The Name of Jesus when speaking of the resurrections. I fully believe Jesus is the Living Word , The living God . He is quoted saying:
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I will ask why would Jesus who is the Resurrection, would say what He does in 5:29


The site is clean neat easy to read thanks.

I read in Joh where Jesus says: Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Sure but he did not say, "for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves AT THE SAME TIME shall hear his voice


Revelation 20 is clear that the saved dead resurrect first and then it says, "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" which very clearly shows a thousand years has to happen before this next group resurrects.

These "first fruits" in Rev 14 are NOT related at all to the FIRST resurrection, which is Jesus'. There is only 1 "firstfruits" resurrection, and 1 Cor 15:23 tells us plainly that it is the resurrection of Jesus that is the "firstfruits" resurrection.

So any other mention of "firstfruits" in the Bible CANNOT be in reference to resurrection. Period.

OK, let's look at see what "harvested" refers to in Rev 14, for those who are curious:

Harvesting the Earth and Trampling the Winepress
14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.
15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.
18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.”
19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.
20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

So, let's see here: the reaping and harvest includes "sharp sickles" (v.14,15,16,17,18,19) and "God's wrath" (v.19) and BLOOD, up to the horses' bridles for about 180 miles.

So, let's just cease all this attempting to link 'harvesting' and 'reaping' in Rev 14 with a so-called 'rapture'. Shall we?

All in heaven are there because they have died. Heaven is where all believers who die go to.

In the "gathering" (so-called rapture), which is "when He comes" (1 Cor 15:23) which is the Second Advent, all believers, both the dead and living, will be given glorified bodies, and THEN reign with King Jesus in the Millennial reign, ON EARTH.

This means that NO believer alive on earth "when He comes" will EVER see the third heaven.

The mt sion in verse 1, is the mt sion in heaven.
They are pictured in heaven in rev 14[/QUOTE]

Right. Since there will be just TWO resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved, the phrase "the hour is coming" refers to the specific time of EACH resurrection.

It would be a mistake to think that John was saying that both resurrections will occur at the same hour. Can't happen if you believe the verses that show when the FIRST resurrection will occur (Rev 20:5) and makes reference to the next one, which is 1,000 years later.

Yes
Know it well.

A pity lot , noah and the baby Jesus all ESCAPED.

As if martyrdom is the only thing God is after.

But yes in a nutshell the bible says all left behind believers are martyred.

....all the while your superior "knowledge" asserts Jesus was light years away in heaven in Paul's and John's experience.

How foolish to change the word, tell Jesus he can not leave his throne untill it fits your debunked doctrine, and actually change revelation to say John turned around to see nobody there STANDING in front of him.

Flat out comical how your "doctrine" has carried you into that debunked theory.

Even in your " defending" it is extra biblical conjecture.
" Jesus cant leave His throne"
Pure baloney.

He has left it many times.

Invincible ignorance friend.

3 things to factor in

My sion in heaven.

Firstfruits in heaven, before the throne.

144k "....WERE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH".....(past tense)

If you can post Scriptures stating what you believe i will accept that. To my understanding Jesus is complete and clear in His Words.

I will ask this with Scripture :
Eph_2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; we have been quickened made live is that not a resurrection?

In fact, the Bible NEVER mentions "left behind" anything. Could you please provide a verse that says what you claim it says?

There is no credibility without evidence.

Regarding the singular resurrection of the saved, Jesus is described as "firstfruits". That's all. EVERY other reference to "firstfruits" refers to something other than the resurrection of the saved.

OK, so? What do you think this phrase means? Jesus provided redemption for all believers. And all believers are "from the earth".