The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

Plain ignorant

Jesus only took 2 or 3 with him to raise the dead damsel.
Same with the mount of transfiguration.

Pssst...that means the others were excluded.

You have no case at all
None

The timing was the question ... things get lost in forums .

Definition: believing something that isn't found in the Bible.

Said the guy who has no case, because he has no Scripture to back up his claims.

Beckie said:
If you can post Scriptures stating what you believe i will accept that. To my understanding Jesus is complete and clear in His Words.

I will ask this with Scripture :
Eph_2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; we have been quickened made live is that not a resurrection?
Hi Beckie, this question was asked of me. I don't see timing in your question.

You mentioned being regenerated, or born again. This is not resurrection in any sense.

The Greek word for "resurrection" is about coming back from the dead. Jesus raised many people, as did His disciples. But none of them received the promised glorified bodies. Not even the 2 witnesses in the Tribulation received glorified bodies when they rose from the dead and ascended to heaven.

Only at the FIRST resurrection (Rev 20:5) will the saved receive their promised glorified body.

were you and I dead in our sin? Did He not quicken us ?

That's being spiritually dead and then spiritually alive. A resurrection is specifically about a physical body coming back to life. In the Greek it literally means to stand up, which the spirit cannot do.

G386
ἀνάστασις
anastasis
an-as'-tas-is
From G450; a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): - raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.
Total KJV occurrences: 42

This word comes from G450:

G450
ἀνίστημι
anistēmi
an-is'-tay-mee
From G303 and G2476; to stand up (literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively): - arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up (-right).
Total KJV occurrences: 112

It's a synonym that has same meaning as G386. This word comes from two words, From G303 and G2476.

G303
ἀνά
ana
an-ah'
A primary preposition and adverb; properly up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.): - and, apiece, by, each, every (man), in, through. In compounds (as a prefix) it often means (by implication) repetition, intensity, reversal, etc.
Total KJV occurrences: 15

G2476
ἵστημι
histēmi
his'-tay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word στάω staō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.
Total KJV occurrences: 156

So one means up and other means to stand, forming a word that means "to stand up" which eventually became a word that means "to stand up again". The again is the second time a body was able to stand which means to be alive and capable of standing since the dead cannot stand.

Being "born again" or "spiritually alive" in a body that is still physically alive is not a resurrection or an anastasis.

Most likely he was not yet told about timeframe inbetween two resurrections until the Revelation. No account prior to Revelation says the saved and unsaved rise at the same time, or same day even but no account also has the time inbetween. Only Revelation contains that info.

Here's what I have saved on this:

Revelation 20 speaks of two groups of the dead that resurrect/live again.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of this first group of the dead because they resurrect first. The rest of the dead have to wait for their resurrection:

"the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev 20:5)

This is the last resurrection of those who are dead. One group resurrected and "the rest" or the remaining ones did not resurrect when the others did.

This proves they partake of the second resurrection also known as the last resurrection because no one is still physically dead after they "live again". This also proves without a doubt that there are two separate days of resurrection separated by a thousand years and how long that actually is doesn't matter.

Part of the dead resurrect and then "the rest of the dead" will resurrect after a period of time. That's the dead resurrecting in two parts separated by a period of time.


The first group resurrects before the thousand years begins and the second/last group resurrects after the end of the thousand years.




Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"


Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

First group resurrection: "the just"
Second group resurrection: the "unjust"

Take note that in every passage where the resurrection of the saved and unsaved are mentioned that the saved or just is always mentioned first. That's important because it is they that resurrect first! Scripture never deviates in this order. Revelation, John, Daniel and acts all say the saved, then the unsaved in that exact order.




What we learn from these verses is that there are two resurrections. One resurrection is to life and the other resurrection is to damnation and contempt. Two resurrections! Never is there a single resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous at the same time.



We also see here that the saved/righteous are resurrected first, and at some time later the unsaved are resurrected and judged.

What these verses do not tell us is how much time is inbetween the two. For that we have to go to Revelation 20 where Christ tells John there is a thousand years inbetween. "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished". There we have the dead separated into two groups. One who are saved and will be resurrected and judged first, like Dan 12:2 and Joh 5:29 show, and the other group that has to wait until the thousand years are finished before they are resurrected and judged.





This is Premill through and through.

Amill errs on the first two passages because it ignores the information in Revelation 20 about the time inbetween and wrongly interprets that the saved and unsaved are resurrected and judged at the same time on the same day which simply isn't the case. This is why one needs to involve [/B][/U]all passages that deal with the resurrections and judgments rather than focusing on some and not others, namely information found in Revelation[/B][/U]. During the canonization process it was an Amill that did not want Revelation to be canonized. Revelation supports the Premill type of view so it's no surprise there was an effort to deny it's canonization.

The earliest identified amillennialist is a presbyter in Rome in the third century, named Gaius, who as a Catholic opposed the canonization of the book of Revelation. After that, the Alexandrian school gave rise to several amillennialists in the mid-third century, with its emphasis on allegorical and spiritual hermeneutics. Amillennialism is a Catholic invention! Amillennialism did not exist before the 3rd century. All the earlier church fathers were Chilastics which was Premillinialism before that term was used. Premillinialism is a better name because in the name is what the theological position believes.




Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,



There will come a time/hour that all baseball teams will play against another team but that doesn't mean all on the same day. A time will come for all the dead to be raised. First, the dead in Christ rise, then after a thousand years "the rest of the dead" will rise. That's what we find when looking at all of the related passages. Leaving the most important passage out of this is clear error.

Another analogy:

"For the hour is coming, in which all who start and complete highschool shall graduate."

No one would argue that every single person who completes highschool will all graduate the same hour, or same day, or even the same year. Obviously, freshmen don't graduate when seniors do as an example.



To understand this even more fully the word "hour" must be understood:

"hour" can be any amount of time since it can be literal or figurative:

G5610
??´?a
ho¯ra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.
Total KJV occurrences: 108

It's been translated as hour, day and even season. A thousand years and longer can also be a "hora".

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So, in this unknown amount of time there will be two resurrections. First (called the first resurrection) the dead in Christ will be resurrected. Then much later in this same "hora", at it's end, will the second or last resurrection take place and that's "the rest of the dead" who did not rise with the first group.

Thy Kingdom Come is in the Lord's Prayer (which is really the Disciples Prayer....Smile) and The Kingdom Age is all throughout the Old Testament, as a matter of fact if you look at the Statue in Dan. 2 and the Beasts of Dan. 7, if you simply take out the Church Age they all FIT PERFECTLY TOGETHER !! But God had to put the 70th week off because Israel refused to repent. They will repent during the soon to come 70th week.

And we are indeed told it will be a 1000 years. In Revelation, WATCH: I will show you how to dig God's truths out here sister. This is why we have to use the whole bible.

Rev. 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them (Church who returns with Jesus), and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. {{{This is the first resurrection.}}}

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.(This really should go ABOVE {{{see above}}} the way we say things today WATCH)


6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire(this is why he is not cast into hell with the Beast and False Prophet in Rev. 19 but ONLY NOW a 1000 years later) and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God(The Second Resurrection 1000 years later); and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell(Hades/the Grave) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

So, the New Heaven and New Earth has NO SEA......But the Wicked Dead were raised after Satan's 1000 years of being locked in the pit, from their graves even those in the sea, so of course Jesus has to reign on this earth for the 1000 years in which Satan is in the bottomless pit, there will be NO SEA in the New Heaven and earth.

Nothing has to be STATED EMPHATICALLY for us to understand God's deep truths. By the way, I think this is an EMPHATIC UTTERANCE that leaves no doubt that Jesus reigns on this earth for 1000 years.

Yu put forth nothing brother because you ARE IN ERROR no matter what you think. Everything you put firth as a reason for anything other than a pre trib Rapture I can destroy. But that's not the point, you leading people the wrong way might indeed cost us souls to the kingdom, all because you do not understand what you think you understand. Its not even a hard to understand concept. You refuse to answer that which you can't, that means you lose the debate. The Church is seen in Rev. 4 and 5 before the Seals are ever opened. CASE CLOSED, the Church is seen in Rev 19 coming back from Heaven with Jesus while the Beast is still on the earth CASE CLOSED. Being proven wrong should be a time to learn, instead, you keep moving forward with concepts that just do not fit together.

He was speaking about the Pharisees being CALLED but thumbing their nose at Gods true son who was trying to call them to be a part of his bride. It is not about the Rev. 19 wedding per se, its about all those who reject Christ, because God calls ALL MEN. So, this really doesn't even fit the context. Yu ight be trying to be wise and say that only pepe like you will make it. Even though I disagree with you 100 percent on most everything, I will not question your faith, just that you were not called unto Prophecy. You will still probably make it to heaven, we are told not to say who WILL or who WILL NOT make it to heaven, that is Gods Alone says the scriptures.

This is you trying to DODGE the stated facts from God/Jesus. Both the Wicked and Righteous van be described in the same manner, but you purposely did not say tat Jesus says its the fine WHITE LINEN that makes her the Bride of Christ, you had to try a FUDGE because you know I am correct. This woman is dressed in FINE SCARLET LINEN. And decked out in Gold and Precious Stones.

Rev. 17 is only what we see Babylon as in Daniel 5, Nebuchadnezzar's son and his servants took the holy cups and plates of God and drank from them, thar very night the handwriting on the wall stated that (Mene mene tekel) You kingdom is taken away from you this day. Thus the Harlot in Rev. 17 is ALL False Religion of All Time. By my standards the Church has on Fine WHITE Linen.

That's on you then, you probably never will since understand it since you are willing to FUDGE the facts that Rev. 19 says FINE WHITE LINEN all because you can not answer that TIMELINE FACT !!

Jesus rules on this earth with the Jews for 1000 years brother. You are overthinking the prose here.

Its the Second Coming brother. We have to get to Rev. 21 before we see the New Heaven and New Earth appear. Look at Rev. 7, why do the 144,00 need PROTECTION if they are not Earthly men? Think about it.

Rev. 7:1 And after these things(After the Seals were all opned BUT ONE the 7th Seal THINK HERE) I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth(Winds represent JUDGMENTS of God), that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. {{{Again THINK, what hurts the Earth, Sea and Trees? The Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgements}}}

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Why would the need to be Sealed Because God promise a seed unto Abraham forever on thus earth, thus Israel has to REPENT before the Day of the Lord comes in Rev. chapter 8, that is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8, Gd HOLDS UP the opening of the 7th Seal which brings God's Wrath, therefore these Jews who repent will have 30 days to flee from the time the 1290 AoD happens until the 1260 Anti-Christ, Beast conquers Jerusalem/Israel. That is why I say the Seals DO NOTHING, they are just Jesus prophesying what's about to come when God's Wrath finally falls.

Yes, and yes. He regenerated us. He did not resurrect us.

The Resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the Rapture take place at His coming.



For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15



JPT

I laid out several facts in rev 14.
They need factoring in.

You did everything but that.

Yes they are sealed. Only Jews are sealed. Only 144k Jews are sealed. And that happens 7 chapters earlier, and of course they are on earth as is obvious

Rev 14 ONLY 144k JEWS ARE GROUPED AND SEALED,AND STANDING IN HEAVEN AS FIRSTFRUITS. IT IS A FACT.

It is that dynamic of "FIRSTFRUITS" that really MAGNIFIES rev 14.

Under your theory, which you omit the components, " firstfruits" does not fit at all. Nor does it (firstfruits) mean anything in what you laid out.

It is the gathering of the Jews.
No way around it, and it happens DURING the gt. ( hence firstfruit Jews EXCLUSIVELY)

It is neither the rapture, nor the second coming.

the issue was whether The elect (us) are ever divided or separated

I provided instances where they were.

You butted in and lied.
Stop lying.
You blatantly lied.

Show me where ANYTHING in that post is NOT true.

You cant.

But lying about me is your desperation.

That is really sick my friend.

None of your verses address you final little nothing burger smear against your debate opponents.

And none of your smear can be backed up scripturally.


You dont even know what overcome is, or enduring to the end.
In your mind you see yourself running from cave to cave with a AC bogey man chasing you.

Then, in your mind, you think a date in time where you are the only one left, you, and you only "endured to the end" and are an "overcomer"

Paul would be neither.
No trib
No AC
No escaping for 7 years in a cave.

He is most likely a sub class in heaven.
Pssssst...it says all take the mark.

Such folly

FreeGrace2 said:
Definition: believing something that isn't found in the Bible.

Said the guy who has no case, because he has no Scripture to back up his claims.
There will always be "an issue" about your presumption of a pretrib rapture. There won't be one. The single resurrection of all believers will occur "wheh He comes" as 1 Cor 15:23 says very plainly. And backed up by 2 Thess 2:1-3.

[UOTE]I provided instances where they were.[/QUOTE]
But you cannot provide ANY verses that have Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven at ANY TIME.

Everything I've posted about you is truth.

Rather than lying, which is a lie in itself, I changed the subject back to the more important issue.

My focus is on the so-called rapture.

How can I be "desperate" when you give me examples all the time to point out?

Rather, what is really sick is claiming something the Bible does NOT SAY. Making up stuff and believing is is "solid Bible" is what is sick.

You should stop.

You say Jesus can not leave his throne UNTIL his enemies are under his feet.
That is your big key power point

Your deal is poorly thought out.

The second coming ITSELF has Jesus leaving his throne prior to Satan defeated.

You cant back up a single point of your doctrine scripturally.
Nor your objections to ours.

You are full of empty charges and claims, but you are quite empty of any evidence that supports these empty charges and claims.[/QUOTE]
you omitted "wife" in your verses.

Stop acting like you didn't

SMH

She is correct.
Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Nothing in that is referring to some resurrection from the grave.

It is a now quickening.
We have resurrection life because of Jesus resurrection.
It is "positional"