Civil Authorities

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Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,001
2,917
113
#1
Mathew 8: 9 & 10
…8The centurion answered, “Lord, I am not worthy to have You come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell one to go, and he goes; and another to come, and he comes. I tell my servant to do something, and he does it.” 10When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.......

Some people seem to think that it is OK to reject civil authorities. Under what circumstances is this acceptable to God? I think it is rather more restrictive than some Christians would like.

What did Lord Jesus say to the Roman? To hell with you, you are oppressing my people, a representative of a pagan empire that is founded on blood? Obviously not.

There is a principle here that transcends the obvious mercy and grace that Lord Jesus showed to a sinner. The Centurion first said that he was under authority. I served in the Navy for nearly 9 years. I know what that means. You go where you are told, you do what you are told, you wear what you are told and have no say in the matter. If you rebel, there are consequences.

My father was also a military man. He was a troublemaker. He knew enough not to get discharged - four kids made him more responsible than that. But he also got himself and the family sent to what was known as a punishment posting. It was a place called Aden, in Yemen. You might have read about the ongoing civil war there.

Rebellion is in the heart of all people. It's Satan's nature and it's evil twin is pride. The first sin was simply an act of disobedience (Romans 5:19). Obviously obedience is the opposite of disobedience.

You do not have to teach children to rebel. It's in their nature. Some kids hide it better. But it lurks there, ready to surface at any time. What exposes rebellion is requirements that displease people. When a child is permitted to do as it pleases, without consequences, rebellion becomes entrenched. It does not leave just because the person gets older.

When a person is born again, the old nature is crucified and God gives us a new nature that is not sinful in itself. However, we bring the old, worldly and selfish attitudes with us into the new life. God will work to rid us of the rebellion because it is harmful to us, makes us ineffective in His Kingdom and offends His Holy character.

When we study God's word, it becomes obvious that there is a hierarchy in God's kingdom. "Submission" is a word foreign to many, yet it is central to church life. Only those who are willing to submit to authority are worthy to exercise it.

Let's look at a real life example. Saul was King, appointed by God and seemed the ideal choice. Samuel was judge/prophet at the time and he was impressed. However, being king went to Saul's head. And like most proud people, he could not bear to look bad before men. He disobeyed Samuel's instructions. The account of Saul's folly is found in 1 Samuel 15.

As a consequence of his disobedience, God took away Saul's kingship and gave it to David. In chapter 16, we see David anointed as king for the first time. David was 16 at the time. Yet God did not immediately allow David to take the throne. In Israel's culture, a man was not considered truly mature until he was 30. David was not ready.

The contrast between Saul and David is stark. David was close to God. You won't read too many psalms of Saul. David treated Saul with great respect. He never treated Saul as an enemy, even when Saul attempted treated David like an enemy to be hunted and killed. David had the opportunity and even motivation to kill Saul. He refuse to lift his hand against Saul. David took the throne righteously, having demonstrated that God was with him and that he was indeed God's choice to replace Saul.

There are many rules made by worldly rulers that I find troublesome. My father was a brilliant driver who treated speed limits as optional guides. He never had an accident, yet traveled flat out most of the time. I loved to go fast. I discovered that speed limits are not optional, unless you have a better bank balance than I've ever had. So I learned (eventually) to obey the speed limits. Are they justified? No. Do they help reduce the road toll? Not necessarily - they may even contribute to driver fatigue, a common cause of accidents. Yet I obey. I've learned that there is a cost to disobedience. Are taxes fair? No. Some of the money goes to educating children to believe that they are descended from a microbe in some primeval swamp. I don't get to choose how my money is spent. Yet I pay tax (not so much now I'm retired), because it is the law.

There are very few occasions when disobedience is justified. Some rules are ridiculous and arbitrary. Yet God requires us to obey. the only time that we are required to disobey is when it hinders the work of preaching the Kingdom of God. We are also required to obey our boss, even if it seems unreasonable at times. (Ephesians 6:6). Wives must submit to their husbands, unless it something obviously immoral or ungodly. Christians should submit to the elders of the church. It may go against the grain, but that's not the point.

I know someone who was stood down from the music ministry of her church when a new pastor took over. She spat the dummy and left. She still confesses Christ, but she is out of fellowship. It's been 20 years of bitterness and resentment. I've tried to help, but she's adamant. How much different her life could have been.

For those who think that I'm making this up, I would point you to Romans 13:

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God. 2Consequently, whoever resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the one in authority? Then do what is right, and you will have his approval. 4For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain. He is God’s servant, an agent of retribution to the wrongdoer.

5Therefore it is necessary to submit to authority, not only to avoid punishment, but also as a matter of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes. For the authorities are God’s servants, who devote themselves to their work. 7Pay everyone what you owe him: taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
 

Artios1

Born again to serve
Dec 11, 2020
671
405
63
#2
Mathew 8: 9 & 10
…8The centurion answered, “Lord, I am not worthy to have You come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell one to go, and he goes; and another to come, and he comes. I tell my servant to do something, and he does it.” 10When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.......

Some people seem to think that it is OK to reject civil authorities. Under what circumstances is this acceptable to God? I think it is rather more restrictive than some Christians would like.

What did Lord Jesus say to the Roman? To hell with you, you are oppressing my people, a representative of a pagan empire that is founded on blood? Obviously not.

There is a principle here that transcends the obvious mercy and grace that Lord Jesus showed to a sinner. The Centurion first said that he was under authority. I served in the Navy for nearly 9 years. I know what that means. You go where you are told, you do what you are told, you wear what you are told and have no say in the matter. If you rebel, there are consequences.

My father was also a military man. He was a troublemaker. He knew enough not to get discharged - four kids made him more responsible than that. But he also got himself and the family sent to what was known as a punishment posting. It was a place called Aden, in Yemen. You might have read about the ongoing civil war there.

Rebellion is in the heart of all people. It's Satan's nature and it's evil twin is pride. The first sin was simply an act of disobedience (Romans 5:19). Obviously obedience is the opposite of disobedience.

You do not have to teach children to rebel. It's in their nature. Some kids hide it better. But it lurks there, ready to surface at any time. What exposes rebellion is requirements that displease people. When a child is permitted to do as it pleases, without consequences, rebellion becomes entrenched. It does not leave just because the person gets older.

When a person is born again, the old nature is crucified and God gives us a new nature that is not sinful in itself. However, we bring the old, worldly and selfish attitudes with us into the new life. God will work to rid us of the rebellion because it is harmful to us, makes us ineffective in His Kingdom and offends His Holy character.

When we study God's word, it becomes obvious that there is a hierarchy in God's kingdom. "Submission" is a word foreign to many, yet it is central to church life. Only those who are willing to submit to authority are worthy to exercise it.

Let's look at a real life example. Saul was King, appointed by God and seemed the ideal choice. Samuel was judge/prophet at the time and he was impressed. However, being king went to Saul's head. And like most proud people, he could not bear to look bad before men. He disobeyed Samuel's instructions. The account of Saul's folly is found in 1 Samuel 15.

As a consequence of his disobedience, God took away Saul's kingship and gave it to David. In chapter 16, we see David anointed as king for the first time. David was 16 at the time. Yet God did not immediately allow David to take the throne. In Israel's culture, a man was not considered truly mature until he was 30. David was not ready.

The contrast between Saul and David is stark. David was close to God. You won't read too many psalms of Saul. David treated Saul with great respect. He never treated Saul as an enemy, even when Saul attempted treated David like an enemy to be hunted and killed. David had the opportunity and even motivation to kill Saul. He refuse to lift his hand against Saul. David took the throne righteously, having demonstrated that God was with him and that he was indeed God's choice to replace Saul.

There are many rules made by worldly rulers that I find troublesome. My father was a brilliant driver who treated speed limits as optional guides. He never had an accident, yet traveled flat out most of the time. I loved to go fast. I discovered that speed limits are not optional, unless you have a better bank balance than I've ever had. So I learned (eventually) to obey the speed limits. Are they justified? No. Do they help reduce the road toll? Not necessarily - they may even contribute to driver fatigue, a common cause of accidents. Yet I obey. I've learned that there is a cost to disobedience. Are taxes fair? No. Some of the money goes to educating children to believe that they are descended from a microbe in some primeval swamp. I don't get to choose how my money is spent. Yet I pay tax (not so much now I'm retired), because it is the law.

There are very few occasions when disobedience is justified. Some rules are ridiculous and arbitrary. Yet God requires us to obey. the only time that we are required to disobey is when it hinders the work of preaching the Kingdom of God. We are also required to obey our boss, even if it seems unreasonable at times. (Ephesians 6:6). Wives must submit to their husbands, unless it something obviously immoral or ungodly. Christians should submit to the elders of the church. It may go against the grain, but that's not the point.

I know someone who was stood down from the music ministry of her church when a new pastor took over. She spat the dummy and left. She still confesses Christ, but she is out of fellowship. It's been 20 years of bitterness and resentment. I've tried to help, but she's adamant. How much different her life could have been.

For those who think that I'm making this up, I would point you to Romans 13:

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God. 2Consequently, whoever resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the one in authority? Then do what is right, and you will have his approval. 4For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain. He is God’s servant, an agent of retribution to the wrongdoer.

5Therefore it is necessary to submit to authority, not only to avoid punishment, but also as a matter of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes. For the authorities are God’s servants, who devote themselves to their work. 7Pay everyone what you owe him: taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
I like the premise of your post ….In this world there are certain laws we do have to obey or suffer consequences.

I would like to bring up one thing, which is the use of Romans 13….

It is not your fault …..as the version you are using points you in that direction …. and I have seen many use this as far as government obedience. This is actually referring to those in authority in the church…. not the government.

I am posting the KJV of 1-5…. although not great… it is a bit clearer.


13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,426
113
#3
Mathew 8: 9 & 10
…8The centurion answered, “Lord, I am not worthy to have You come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell one to go, and he goes; and another to come, and he comes. I tell my servant to do something, and he does it.” 10When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith........
All kingdoms have their laws. In England you drive on the left side of the road I am told, in the US you drive on the right. We are to obey the rules of the nation we live in.

But as Christians, our home kingdom is the kingdom of heaven. It is like being citizens of one country but go to live in another. If the country we live in does something so we need to choose the law to go by, we choose the home country. An example is if the country we live in declares war on our home country.

Readers Digest told of a test made at a hospital relating to this. They gave personnel orders that were harmful to a patient to see if that person would defy orders in order not to cause harm. Of course they were stopped from causing harm in case they agreed, but more agreed to doing this than ones who said no they would not.

Hitler found many people who would obey the worldly kingdom instead of the kingom of heaven.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,001
2,917
113
#4
All kingdoms have their laws. In England you drive on the left side of the road I am told, in the US you drive on the right. We are to obey the rules of the nation we live in.

But as Christians, our home kingdom is the kingdom of heaven. It is like being citizens of one country but go to live in another. If the country we live in does something so we need to choose the law to go by, we choose the home country. An example is if the country we live in declares war on our home country.

Readers Digest told of a test made at a hospital relating to this. They gave personnel orders that were harmful to a patient to see if that person would defy orders in order not to cause harm. Of course they were stopped from causing harm in case they agreed, but more agreed to doing this than ones who said no they would not.

Hitler found many people who would obey the worldly kingdom instead of the kingom of heaven.
You miss the point of God's instruction. It is to expose and deliver Christians from rebellion. In rare cases, some laws are definitely against God's kingdom and should be disobeyed. But that is the exception.

Some of the posters here are obviously of the opinion that obedience to God's instruction in this matter is optional. Saul, to his great cost, found out to the contrary. Hitler was dealing with unbelievers. We can expect nothing more from them.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,001
2,917
113
#5
I like the premise of your post ….In this world there are certain laws we do have to obey or suffer consequences.

I would like to bring up one thing, which is the use of Romans 13….

It is not your fault …..as the version you are using points you in that direction …. and I have seen many use this as far as government obedience. This is actually referring to those in authority in the church…. not the government.

I am posting the KJV of 1-5…. although not great… it is a bit clearer.


13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
So Christian leaders can impose taxes? And impose capital punishment? I don't buy that for a moment. When I read that Lord Jesus rebelled against Rome, I'll agree that Christians can ignore laws that they don't like.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,282
6,567
113
#6
We are in the world but not of the world. Take it from this stand on the Word, and you will have nothing to do with Caesar nor with Herod.