The 144k Jews In Heaven during the Great Tribulation.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

This is fascinating that the setting is in the Great Tribulation ,and we see a first Fruit Harvest of ethnic Jews in heaven and they are Before the Throne of God.
The fact that these are first fruits indicates that a Maine Harvest of "like kind" (ethnic Jews), would soon follow, because "first fruits" ( the 144k), indicates a harvest.
It is also fascinating that just a few verses later in verse 14 we see the main Harvest, which is also Jewish. This is all happening during the Great Tribulation.
Now that means that 1Thessalonians 4, which would be the dead in Christ Resurrected and raptured, cannot happen in anything but a pre-tribulation dynamic.
Because you cannot have the dead in Christ Rising first if they are preceded by the Jewish Harvest of Revelation 14.
In other words ,you can look at it this way, we know the dead in Christ rise first, and the "alive ones" after that. So how can 1st Thessalonians 4 apply to the coming of Jesus on white horses? because that is after the Harvest of Jews in Revelation 14.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

This is fascinating that the setting is in the Great Tribulation ,and we see a first Fruit Harvest of ethnic Jews in heaven and they are Before the Throne of God.
The fact that these are first fruits indicates that a Maine Harvest of "like kind" (ethnic Jews), would soon follow, because "first fruits" ( the 144k), indicates a harvest.
It is also fascinating that just a few verses later in verse 14 we see the main Harvest, which is also Jewish. This is all happening during the Great Tribulation.
Now that means that 1Thessalonians 4, which would be the dead in Christ Resurrected and raptured, cannot happen in anything but a pre-tribulation dynamic.
Because you cannot have the dead in Christ Rising first if they are preceded by the Jewish Harvest of Revelation 14.
In other words ,you can look at it this way, we know the dead in Christ rise first, and the "alive ones" after that. So how can 1st Thessalonians 4 apply to the coming of Jesus on white horses? because that is after the Harvest of Jews in Revelation 14.

What?

Couldn't make your point real in the other thread?

I will proceed to the exit and engage no further with you!

Those of your caliber and attitude got that thread locked.
It is a bible study on the 144k.

way over your head as you have demonstrated.

Fyi I never posted in Marilyn's thread about the "rapture".

I do not consider rapture threads to be important on a christian site bc it's too controversial.

Btw, I don't don't think you can show me much of anything of the word that the Holy Spirit cannot and has not shown me.

Btw, I don't don't think you can show me much of anything of the word that the Holy Spirit cannot and has not shown me.

Not my Job.
My job is simply to report what is in the word.
You can reframe it, challenge it, or just state your opposing or confirming views.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


This does NOT SAY RAPTURED, but 'sealed'. WHAT ELSE IS WRITTEN?
You stated it to be a PRE TRIB RAPT but

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


Is there any other TIMING written surrounding this topic?


Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders:
and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Unless, of course, you're wrong about this then the other option is you're standing corrected. I think we should always remain open to that possibility.

Now that means that 1Thessalonians 4, which would be the dead in Christ Resurrected and raptured, cannot happen in anything but a pre-tribulation dynamic.
Because you cannot have the dead in Christ Rising first if they are preceded by the Jewish Harvest of Revelation 14.

Ok,I am teachable.
Post where i got it wrong.

Read post #3 in this thread.

"Redeemed from the earth" doesn't mean rapture. It literally means "purchased from the Earth" and it's about the church being purchased by the blood of Christ. Rapture is actually a tertiary, or secondary, doctrine in the Bible and doesn't appear very many places. I think you're looking for the rapture (particularly the pre-trib) so intensely in the scripture that when you think you see something that hints at being taken to heaven then you automatically see rapture in a sort of rapture tunnel vision.

The setting is not in the great tribulation. This is a vision of Mount Zion in the Heavenly Jerusalem and something that is confirmed elsewhere in scripture: Hebrews.

Hebrews 12:22-23 KJV
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Revelation 14:1-5 KJV
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

"Redeemed from the Earth" means purchased. The church is purchased by the blood of Christ. "Redeemed from the earth" does not mean rapture or resurrection or anything in particular. It's just a vision of the first 144K people to obtain salvation through Christ, I believe. That's why they are called the firstfruits according to Revelation or the church of the firstborn in Hebrews. They're currently in heaven singing to God around the throne and dwelling with Jesus.

God bless

Read post #3 in this thread.

"Redeemed from the earth" doesn't mean rapture. It literally means "purchased from the Earth" and it's about the church being purchased by the blood of Christ. Rapture is actually a tertiary, or secondary, doctrine in the Bible and doesn't appear very many places. I think you're looking for the rapture (particularly the pre-trib) so intensely in the scripture that when you think you see something that hints at being taken to heaven then you automatically see rapture in a sort of rapture tunnel vision.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

This is fascinating that the setting is in the Great Tribulation ,and we see a first Fruit Harvest of ethnic Jews in heaven and they are Before the Throne of God.
The fact that these are first fruits indicates that a Maine Harvest of "like kind" (ethnic Jews), would soon follow, because "first fruits" ( the 144k), indicates a harvest.
It is also fascinating that just a few verses later in verse 14 we see the main Harvest, which is also Jewish. This is all happening during the Great Tribulation.
Now that means that 1Thessalonians 4, which would be the dead in Christ Resurrected and raptured, cannot happen in anything but a pre-tribulation dynamic.
Because you cannot have the dead in Christ Rising first if they are preceded by the Jewish Harvest of Revelation 14.
In other words ,you can look at it this way, we know the dead in Christ rise first, and the "alive ones" after that. So how can 1st Thessalonians 4 apply to the coming of Jesus on white horses? because that is after the Harvest of Jews in Revelation 14.

""" I think you're looking for the rapture (particularly the pre-trib) so intensely in the scripture that when you think you see something that hints at being taken to heaven then you automatically see rapture in a sort of rapture tunnel vision."""

Ok
The 144k have nothing whatsoever to do with the rapture of 1 thes 4.

Let me clarify....in a factual clear tone ( i am not yelling, mad or any of that....so sorry if it appears that way)
I have never, ever said the 144k in heaven is the rapture.

You literally made that up. Then framed me into some hyper rapture radical that can not discern the word due to an obsession with the rapture.

....off of a imagined perception.

Rapture is just a catching up.

Now how ironic that "catching up" is forbidden in the 144k , when it is obvious they got there somehow ,as did Jesus in acts 1, enoch, and the church in 1 thes 4..

" raptured, taken, ushered", any of them fits.

And nothing in the scriptures you quoted in the OP hints at rapture. I am trying to show you that the bit in Rev. 14 about the 144K is not a rapture verse. Take it or leave it.

God bless