Do SDA believe Michael is God?

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Feb 7, 2022
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Satan has no authority that Christ would be remiss to disrespect.
there is nothing about Satan that Christ does not know, such that Christ might misspeak were He to rebuke him
You are in error and confused.

Again numerous OT and NT texts show that the Son of the Father/Michael only speaks when and what the Father gives Him to speak. He is the great eternal Mediator, the highest messenger between the Father and all the created universe.

Jude states that Michael/Son of God left the judgement of rebuke to His Father, and in that sense did rebuke, but did not once use a tactic of the devil in giving a railing accusation in return, as the devil does to Him.
 
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Christ however, who is very God of very God, perfect in knowledge and having all authority, openly accuses Satan, and openly rebukes him.
Again, dealing with location and timing. In Jude, the Son of God/Michael comes in office as highest messenger on behalf of the Father for Moses, and must confront the devil a fallen angel. This takes place before the NT and the Son/Michael taking upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh.

Jesus, the name taken after taking upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh, comes on behalf of the Father to mankind in the NT.

In both instances the Son only can speak and do what the Father tells and shows Him to do.

In the NT, when the Son/Michael takes on the likeness of sinful flesh, He becomes the New Adam, and has authority, as the new ruler of the earth, and then can "rebuke" the devils, as an example for humanity which is to be in Him. Judgement is given to the Son by the Father then.
 
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Jude gives us a very clear and powerful contrast between Michael & Christ -- destroying the hybrid SDA/JW argument.
The "SDA" position is the biblical and historical position. -

https://archive.org/details/michael...cal-list-of-those-who-taught-jesus-is-michael

https://archive.org/details/michael-the-archangel-11-messengers-of-the-lord-the-reformation-etc

But if you want to keep your Catholic/WTS unscriptural and unhistorical hybrid position that is your prerogative.
 
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NIV. One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters.

This text was a cross reference in my Bible.
NIV is a Jesuit (Cardinal Carlo M Martini, SJ) bible translated from some of the most corrupt and emended codices (like codex aleph, Sinaiticus and B, Vaticanus), which is why it has such a linked reference, for it promotes their worship of created angels and demotes the Son of God to a mere created being when it covertly can.
 
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New American Standard
If you really want me to start showing you in near endless detail why those books you are citing from are not the word of God, create another thread about translations, and I'll be glad to "learn you sumthin'", but if you expect to convince me you even partially understand this subject we are currently on (Michael), then prove to me your position from the inspired and preserved word of God in English, the King James Bible, for I do not put up with the foolishness of the things which come from those corrupted and Catholic texts. I have studied that subject very deeply and have the documented evidence in plethora, hundreds and hundreds of pages worth.
 
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if we want to study words in scripture, we have to put away translations and dig into the actual languages God purposed to transmit His Word in
False, and even blasphemes the scripture itself. The NT often cites the OT not in original language, but in translation to the common tongue of the common (kione) people, thus setting the example for us, that even a translation into English (etc) is fine, since the Bible defines itself line upon line (Isaiah 28:10,13), and thus do the same with a translation.

Even Jesus speaking to Saul on the road to Damascus spoke in Hebrew but we only have the koine Greek translation.

Tell you what. I'll provide several scanned images of original language documents, and give you one hour to translate them. Let me know when you are ready to do this and I'll post those mss. They may or may not be from the Bible or even in Hebrew, Syriack or koine Greek, but I'm sure you will be able to figure out which is which, right?
 
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Waiting for Agela53510 to show from scripture why they "disagree". Simply disagreeing isn't positive evidence against the stated position, nor is it positive evidence for your position.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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Yes, He is and I have shown the scriptures which demonstrate it as so multiple times with linked studies for extreme detail. Paraphrase, can be safely ignored (Isaiah 8:20; 2 Peter 1:20, etc).
You have shown nothing but that you are in a cult. You don't know Greek or Hebrew. You translate the original languages using the KJV. The translators of that version used seven late 15th century manuscripts which were very corrupted to translate. Even if it had been a good translation 400 years ago, (which it was not because of corruption) it is full of obsolete & archaic vocabulary and grammar. You are a KJV cultist, who doesn't understand even basic translating.

My advice is to spend a few years learning Greek and Hebrew. Instead of using a KJ Strong's. Get Bauer (BDAG) a proper Greek lexicon, and BDB (Brown Driver Briggs) for an extensive Hebrew lexicon.

Come back when you have taken a few master's levels courses in both of the original languages. That's what I did, and it is the proper way to study the Bible, as @posthuman said a few posts ago.

I'm not well right now, I'm between Rheumatoid Arthritis meds. In a couple months, I'd be happy to go head to head, using good sources for references, leaving the KJV totally out of the conversation. Bill Mounce offers great 1st and 2nd year courses in Greek, and 1st year Hebrew. I challenge you to try them. He's even on most of the modern translation committees and can't stand the KJV either. Not that it hasn't led many to Christ! But better to use a Bible in modern English than a corrupted one that is 400 years old!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Jude is built in a specific chiastic structure which turns your reply into foolishness
dude. that chiasm is exactly what i pointed out.
there are 7 groups in the little epistle, each with triplet structure internally.
this is the 3rd group:


5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.

11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

herein it is internally chiastic:

5 ~ A
6 ~ B
7~ A

8 ~ A
9 ~ B
10 ~ A

then 11 ~ C


in the 'A' mode, we have the ignorant and ungodly who speak evil of dignitaries & authourites without knowledge, men in unbelief

in B, contrasted to A, speaking of angels. in {5,6,7} the angels are openly rebelling against authority, not without knowledge, in contrast with men who rebel in unbelief. in {8,9,10} men are speaking evil without knowledge, but by contrast in 'B' the angel Michael respects the authority of the angel Satan

in C, summing up A.

none of this symmetric structure makes Michael God.
it reinforces the fact that Michael is being described (1) as an example from the angelic realm related to but contrasted with examples from the human realm, and (2) Michael is respecting rulers/dignitaries rather than blaspheming them.

so if you have Michael = God, you have God respecting Satan as having higher positional authority than Himself.
which is ludicrous.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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You made it up. Next time cite scripture, not 'you' as final authority.

Lucifer had been the 'anointed cherub that coverth', but was no longer, but is now "fallen". Lucifer is "created" as Isaiah and Ezekiel, etc., state. Having been that cherub as Gabriel now is, used to stand in the presence of God.

1 Samuel 24 & 1 Samuel 26

Saul is fallen, and David has been anointed king
Saul contends with and persecutes David
David 'dares not touch the Lord's anointed' even tho that anointed one was fallen and disgraced and trying to murder him.
 
Feb 7, 2022
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Michael is respecting rulers/dignitaries rather than blaspheming them.
Yep. As much as you dislike that satan is a ruler, God honoured it even in Job 1-2, etc.

The Son/Michael shows respect to all, for He is no respecter of persons. He even showed love to Judas.

That doesn't place Judas or the devil above the Son in the least.

Your conclusion reaches far beyond the evidence ( of scripture) at hand.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,665
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You have shown nothing but that you are in a cult. You don't know Greek or Hebrew. You translate the original languages using the KJV. The translators of that version used seven late 15th century manuscripts which were very corrupted to translate. Even if it had been a good translation 400 years ago, (which it was not because of corruption) it is full of obsolete & archaic vocabulary and grammar. You are a KJV cultist, who doesn't understand even basic translating.

My advice is to spend a few years learning Greek and Hebrew. Instead of using a KJ Strong's. Get Bauer (BDAG) a proper Greek lexicon, and BDB (Brown Driver Briggs) for an extensive Hebrew lexicon.

Come back when you have taken a few master's levels courses in both of the original languages. That's what I did, and it is the proper way to study the Bible, as @posthuman said a few posts ago.

I'm not well right now, I'm between Rheumatoid Arthritis meds. In a couple months, I'd be happy to go head to head, using good sources for references, leaving the KJV totally out of the conversation. Bill Mounce offers great 1st and 2nd year courses in Greek, and 1st year Hebrew. I challenge you to try them. He's even on most of the modern translation committees and can't stand the KJV either. Not that it hasn't led many to Christ! But better to use a Bible in modern English than a corrupted one that is 400 years old!
i hope you get well soon; you're in my prayers
 
Feb 7, 2022
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1 Samuel 24 & 1 Samuel 26

Saul is fallen, and David has been anointed king
Saul contends with and persecutes David
David 'dares not touch the Lord's anointed' even tho that anointed one was fallen and disgraced and trying to murder him.
Now you're getting it.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,665
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Yep. As much as you dislike that satan is a ruler, God honoured it even in Job 1-2, etc.

The Son/Michael shows respect to all, for He is no respecter of persons. He even showed love to Judas.

That doesn't place Judas or the devil above the Son in the least.

Your conclusion reaches far beyond the evidence ( of scripture) at hand.
you're completely ignoring the explicit context in Jude of 'authorities, dignitaries'
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Saul in those contexts sits on the throne.
David dares not disrespect his positional authority.

likewise, Michael dares not disrespect Satan, even while Satan is fallen, he still occupies a higher station in the angelic order.
this is in stark contrast with God, who is typified in those events by the prophet Samuel who does the anointing, and has zero qualms about speaking judgement against Saul or David to their very face, rebuking them directly.

Michael does not act as Samuel, in the analogous types.
Samuel ((typifying God)) does not respect the persons of human authority.
Michael, like David, ((typifying righteous created beings)) does - daring not to revile the one God has set as authority over him, even when that one is fallen and a murderer. Michael defers to God; Michael is not God.