An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

You asked "Do spirits wear robes?" = YES = Read Revelation the first 3 chapters.

You asked "And please tell me where it says 'THE resurrection does not take place until He returns?"

The LORD's answer to your question = 1 Thess 4:13-18 , Hebrews 9:28 , 1 John ch2-ch3 , 1 Cor ch15 , Rev ch20

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

You contradict yourself and scripture - please review this post of yours against the clear teachings of Christ and the Apostles:
A.) Gospel of John
B.) Acts
C.) 1 Peter
D.) Romans
E.) Galatians
F.) Ephesians
G.) James

All these words/writings of Christ and the Apostles oppose your contradictions.

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you have a clearly worded verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?

Please share if you do.

It doesn't. The question is straight forward. Why are you so hesitant to answer it?
Pump up my pride? Who are you to judge another? Where did you get this nutty idea?

What I've posted and shared comes straight from Scripture. If you have a problem with my posts, it's really with Scripture.

Or prove that my views are not found in Scripture.

Clearly not.

So seeing as you haven't actually stated what your answer is to my question, which of these statements answers my question> My question was:

Does the first resurrection precede or proceed the thousand year kingdom?

You answered a parenthetic question on racism and then reinforced your snarky answer. Old bean.

It would be if you could simply answer one question and resist giving me a misplaced sibling thrashing.

There can be and surely that is the point to make is it not? If what we say is what is plainly stated in the Scripture - we are no more than mere men reading words and citing clearly stated claims. I can't see how that will explain the profound schism that leads to this endless diatribe of confusion that informs the spectacular wasted effort that had the author of this thread [Carry_Your_Name] telling us he was sick of all the bitching [his word not mine] on the question of the rapture and then telling us that we should simply take stock of our own lives as a mechanism to being dressed in readiness.

To quote yourself, brother [above you understand].

So, does the first resurrection precede or proceed the thousand year kingdom?

Thats what I am doing old bean. Try not to get annoyed. It's just not cricket.

I have addressed this many times in this thread. The first resurrection is stated in Rev 20:5, when tribulational martyrs will rise from the dead and reign with Christ. Obviously precede the Millennium.

Please show me my "snarky" answer. I had made the point that Jews were highly bigoted regarding non Jews (Gentiles). You retorted with a snarky comment and said "dog" was in reference to being "spritual dogs" or some such thing. I responded with your own example of the Syrophoenecian woman who called herself a "dog".

FreeGrace2 said:
Of course it is.
What are you talking about? How does my AGREEMENT not answer your question??

So then, the difficulty, seeing as your answer is already clear - is how can there be a rapture and a meeting the King that precedes the trumpet sound (the last trumpet) that heralds His entry into the seat of His government and His 1000 year Kingdom.
There can be and surely that is the point to make is it not? If what we say is what is plainly stated in the Scripture - we are no more than mere men reading words and citing clearly stated claims.[/QUOTE]
Not sure where you want to go with this but the whole point is that it is impossible for both sides of a debate/etc to be stating what is "plainy stated in Scripture" when each side is diametrically opposed

OK, once again, the first resurrection, which involves all believers, precedes the Millennial kingdom.

The second resurrection, which involves all unbelievers, and doesn't include glorified bodies, proceeds the Millennial kingdom.

FreeGrace2 said:
What I've posted and shared comes straight from Scripture. If you have a problem with my posts, it's really with Scripture.

Or prove that my views are not found in Scripture.
You really think you are? So far, I haven't seen anything from you that qualifies as a refutation.

In fact, it seems you haven't yet started. Can you cut to the chase, or would you rather just play cricket?

Yes it does tell us who that particular promise was made

Gen 12 ; In yu shall be a great nation (Israel)

gen 15: To you and your descendants I give this land.

Gen 17, To you and your descendents I give this land.

Thats not hard to understand

He did not say to the church, He did not say ony until Christ came, He did not say temporarily He did not say to the body of Christ, He di dnot say a heavenly land.

Now you either Take God at his word. Or you call him a liar and Indian giver. There is no other option.

We are talking about revelation. And what it says.

It says what it says. You either believe him or you do not..

Again, There is no precedence for this to by symbolic. Or representative of the churCh, The very passages you use, says the church is one, neither jew or gentile. Not 12.

Mat 24 is not a parable

Neither is Ruth, acts 1, rev19, rev 14, and the last supper dialogue.

There never has been a case for a postrib rapture as you have demonstrated.

But reject the parables as well.
You do anyway.

The LORD set the precedent for it being symbolic just as HE decided to do so when HE spoke parables on earth.

Is the dragon an literal dragon? NO = symbolic

Does Jesus use a literal sickle? NO = Symbolic

More symbolism in Revelation:
the number 7
seven lampstands
seven stars
bowls of incense
seven headed beast
ten horns on the beast
four horsemen
woman in purple
and more....

Let's start with the Truth = Gospel of John ch1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
There came a man who was sent from God. His name was John. He came as a witness to testify about the Light, so that through him everyone might believe. He himself was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him.
He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

Yep.

FreeGrace2 said:
There are no verses that prove or give clear evidence of the pretrib idea. That's why they have to go to parables, where their "interpretation" cannot be refuted. Only the One who gave the parable has the authority to explain it.
I was referring to your claims about the 10 virgins.

I didn't say any of them were.

There always has been. Unlike the presumed pretrib rapture. In fact, there is NO trip to heaven by glorified believers, or the Bible would have SAID SO.

I've shown from Scripture there is just one resurrection for the saved. I have shown the resurrection includes trib martyrs.

You have simply made up your mind and you don't want facts. But they are there, for all to see.

You bet I reject parables that are used to defend one's opinions about things.

Jesus gave the parables. He is the ONLY One to explain them. Not you. Not me.

What version of the Bible are you using? None of the ones I can see say "Israel"

You mean the lines that says "unto thy seed"? If you read Gal 3 you will know that means Christ.

Yes He did, unless you are claiming Gal 3:29 is a lie.

Gal 3:29 proves that those in Christ are seed and heirs.

Gal 3:16 proves that only Christ and those in Christ are seed and heirs.

You need the NT to understand the OT. You can't find a true understanding without doing so.

Good Evening!
Nada.
Strife?
......You just got here.....

God Bless

NO, JOHN DID NOT, HE COULDN'T. HIS FLESH HASN'T DIED YET. HE HADN'T DIED THE DEATH OF ADAM. WE CAN'T USE HIM OR PAUL. THEY ARE APPLES AND WE ARE TALKING ORANGES

WHAT HAPPENS ONCE THE FLESH BODY DIES?

WITH WHAT BODY ARE WE RAISED? I ask MYSELF 'WHAT EXACTLY is WRITTEN?'

Here is the answer I found, if you have found another I am all eyes. I will let you know I believe these words as written as they are clear and without contradiction and I DON'T need them to 'back up' some belief I have. My belief is what is written.

Please READ the comments so you will know why I don't believe as you do on this.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that He rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

If you are saying anything other than 'there is a resurrection of the dead' something IS BEING BROUGHT to the words of God and I would like to know why that is.

EVEN if you are saying THERE WILL BE A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD sometime in the future, then you also need to say that CHRIST WILL BE RISING FROM THE DEAD in the future also. Can't have one without the other. IT ISN'T WRITTEN IN THAT MANNER. THEY ARE ALWAYS WRITTEN IN THE SAME TENSE.


IF THE DEAD DON'T RESURRECT THEN CHRIST CAN'T RESURRECT.
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen

SO WE KNOW FOR SURE THE DEAD DO RISE. WE EVEN AGREE THE DEAD DO RISE. WE ONLY DON'T AGREE ABOUT WHAT 'BODY' WE RISE WITH. SO WHAT ARE WE TOLD?
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ: whom He raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

.CHRIST IS THE FIRSTFRUITS OF A GROUP OF SOULS AND THAT GROUP IS THEM THAT SLEPT. NOT THEM THAT WILL BE GOING TO SLEEP BUT OF A GROUP ALREADY DEAD.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order

CHRIST THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THAT IMMEDIATE GROUP


Christ the firstfruits

AND ALL BELIEVERS WHO GO TO SLEEP RISE UP IN THEIR ORDER


AND THEN THE ALIVE AND REMAINING AT HIS COMING BECAUSE THEY DON'T PRECEDE THEY RISE UP AFTER
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.




34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.


THERE ISN'T EVEN A QUESTION OF 'IF' THERE IS A BODY, THE QUESTION ZOOMS PAST AND GOES TO WHAT KIND
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?



HOW DOES THE SPIRITUAL BODY COME TO LIFE???
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain



NO QUESTIONS LEFT ABOUT RISING UP IN A BODY OR NOT IS THERE?
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.


NOTICE, NO 'LAST DAY' BEING BROUGHT UP. JUST A SIMPLE TEACHING ON CHANGE OF BODIES AND WHEN AND HOW
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

FIRST WE LIVE THIS WAY, THEN WE LIVE THAT WAY
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.




NOW COMES THE END TIME MYSTERY. WHAT HAPPENS ON THE LAST AND FINAL DAY WHEN CHRIST RETURNS AND PEOPLE ARE STILL ALIVE?
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
NOT EVERYONE DIES AND RESURRECTS BECAUSE ON THE LAST DAY THEY WONT SLEEP FIRST, THEY WILL JUST BE CHANGED





HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE BODIES?
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,


WHO ARE THESE DEAD SINCE ALL BELIEVERS HAVE ALREADY RISEN?
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,

AND THE ALIVE WILL BE CHANGED?
and we shall be changed.


THOSE SAVED WHO DIED AND RAISED ALREADY PUT ON INCORRUPTION AND HAVE ALREADY RECEIVED IMMORTALITY. THEY ARE ALL OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

BUT 'THE DEAD' THEY ARE JUST NOW RISING
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption,



THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND CHANGED BECOME IMMORTAL
and this mortal must put on immortality.



WHEN 'THE DEAD' HAVE PUT ON THEIR INCORRUPTIBLE BODY, AND THE 'CHANGED' HAVE BECOME IMMORTAL
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,


NO MORE DEATH OF THE FLESH AS ALL ARE NOW IN BODIES THAT ONLY GOD CAN KILL
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


ONLY DEATH LEFT IS LAKE OF FIRE. NO ONE IS GOING TO THE 'GRAVE' BY THE HAND OF ANOTHER MAN EVER AGAIN. NO MORE FEARING MAN WHO CAN KILL THE BODY. WHAT A MESS THAT WOULD CREATE.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet," - Rev 1:10 KJV

John was in the future, in spirit, talking with other individuals. What else can "in the spirit" mean?

And what about Samuel in the OT? Was that a spirit body pre-glorification? Or was that a glorified spirit body?

With John's revelation, one could expect that his physical (dead) remains existed at the same timeframe that he was bearing witness to. Logically, it would follow that it would have been possible for him to see himself (his future glorified-body self) after the resurrection.

Not many people take the time to think about the fact that Revelation involves time travel and differs from typical prophesies by the fact that John actually interacts with things and has an "in spirit" body capable of kneeling or bowing to an angel.

Prophecy is not symbolic

He set the precedent by literally fulfilling All prophesied concerning him in his first advent.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God,


OK. THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP ARE COMING WITH HIM SO THEY HAVE ALREADY RISEN, HAVEN'T THEY? THOSE WERE THE COMFORTING WORDS THAT MAKE US DIFFERENT THAN THE HEATHEN, RIGHT? WE DON'T DIE LIKE THE HEATHEN WE CONTINUE ON LIVING BECAUSE WE HAVE RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION. THE BLOOD OF CHRIST RENDERS US WITHOUT SIN. NO SIN NO GRAVE CAN HOLD US, SO WE RISE. AND WITH WHAT BODY DO WE RISE? WE HAVE TWO. WE ARE RAISED IN GLORY.


SO WHO ARE THESE 'DEAD'?
and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.


After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.



Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

My Dad died 10 years ago, and HE APPEARED TO HIM.

My husband died 4 years ago and HE APPEARED TO HIM.

He has 'appeared' the second time UNTO EACH OF THEM.

NOWHERE does it say THAT IT IS TO BE AT THE SAME TIME, ON A LAST DAY


1 John ch2-ch3 , 1 Cor ch15 , Rev ch20


HERE? NO 'LAST DAY' NO GROUP EVENT, not even talking about the 'last day' in any respect.
John 2:25 And this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, WHEN He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.
29 If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.


HERE? AGAIN, NO TIME. NOT EVEN SPEAKING OF THE LAST DAY OR HIS RETURN
John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.


BUT WHAT WE DO KNOW IS WE ARE RAISED UP IN A GLORIFIED BODY, IF INDEED WE BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Many nations came from abraha, But only one nation came with the promise and christ came from that nation. That nation was Isreal.

[quote[
You mean the lines that says "unto thy seed"? If you read Gal 3 you will know that means Christ.



Yes He did, unless you are claiming Gal 3:29 is a lie.

Gal 3:29 proves that those in Christ are seed and heirs.

Gal 3:16 proves that only Christ and those in Christ are seed and heirs.

You need the NT to understand the OT. You can't find a true understanding without doing so.[/QUOTE]
So do you believe everyone who was born of Abraham jacob and Isaac is saved?

because that is who the promise of land was given to.

Why do you not lie in peace in the land of canaan if the promise was to you?