An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

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Jan 14, 2021
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Are you telling me that these promises are no longer valid.
No, but you misunderstand to whom the promises were made. Scripture tells us they are Christ's and those in Christ. Not all descendants of Israel inherit the promises. Christ does. Therefore those in Christ inherit the promises.

God made promises to abraham

Gen 12:
1. I will make you a great nation; (Israel, Also included is the land which in ch 15 and 17 God will promise to abraham and this nation as an eternal promise)


2. I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; (Ongoing, as true today as it was in Christ day and will continue as long as this earth exists)


3. And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (through Christ and the cross)

Gal 3 and all the passages you keep quoting does not concern promise number 1, It can only be adressed in promise 2 on the fact abraham had many sons, Many nations came from him (Esau and Jacob and Ishmael are three examples. there are more) it mostly deals with promise #3, In you shall all nations be blessed. That is SALVATION is OFFERED TO ALL MANKIND based on CHRIST. where there is no jew or gentil
You broke down the Abrahamic promises into three separate promises. Let's suppose this is the case for a moment. Let's call them promises 1 through 3 like you suggest.

You then argue that Gal 3:16 only applies to a subset of these Abrahamic promises and specifically excludes promise 1.

First Question: how are you coming to this conclusion?

In Christ there is a nation from Abraham, and the land claims outlined in Gen 15 are also Christ's. Anything in Gen 17 is also Christ's. Gal 3:16 necessarily indicates that the promises in Gen 15 and Gen 17 are Christ's.

1 Peter 2 undoubtedly seems to indicate there is in fact a nation in Christ:

"If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. [...] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." - 1 Peter 2:2-5&9-10 KJV

Those in Christ are Abraham's seed:

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Gal 3:29 KJV

Scripture says that the promises (including the land promise) goes to Abraham's seed. Scripture says that seed is Christ. Even without Gal 3:16, Christ is Abraham's seed. Gal 3:16 just states that the promises are exclusive to Christ (and those in Christ).

If Christians controlled all of the land mentioned in Gen 15, that promise would be fulfilled. How can you possibly disagree with that?

If you don't believe that you either don't believe 1) that Christ is the seed of Abraham or you don't believe 2) that those in Christ are actually in Christ and heirs to the promise per Gal 3:29. To deny that premise is to deny scripture.

To recap:

You claimed users were saying "God's a liar!" when they weren't. You then backtracked and claimed that those users claimed "God won't keep His promises! (and is therefore a liar)" which they didn't. And then you backtracked and stated the Abraham's promises weren't for Christ and therefore "unfulfilled promises would make God a liar". You were shown that Gal 3:16 says "promises", then backtracked and proposed that there were two different sets of promises of which some were Christ's and some were for nonChristians exclusively. You presented three promises and claimed that the promise of a nation could not be Christ's. Is your position that there is no nation in Christ? I think you're not thinking through what you are saying.

Let's look at this another way. Do all of the descendants / seed of Abraham have the land at the same time? Does that mean they all have to be collected into the same land? Would this include the dead? Or only the living? If it is not 100% of the descendants of Abraham that are required to fulfil the promise (only that some descendants have the land), which ones would it be needed in order to fulfil that promise?
 
Dec 15, 2021
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The Bible actually teaches that the "first resurrection" (that for the saved) is in three phases (just like a Hebrew harvest): (1) Christ is the First Fruits, (2) the Resurrection/Rapture is the main harvest, and (3)the resurrection of the Tribulation saints would be "the gleanings". See 1 Cor 15

"When He comes" FOR the saints at the Rapture. So the Resurrection/Rapture is one event.

How come what YOU say is so different from what JESUS says?

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
 
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Revelation ch4 expresses that the 24 Elders have not yet received their glorified resurrected bodies.

ALL of Revelation up to ch20 expresses that no one has glorified resurrected bodies except ONE = JESUS.
If we only have two, then which did they resurrect with?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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How come what YOU say is so different from what JESUS says?

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
We have no problem or conflict with Matthew 13, nor any other Scripture, for that matter. Matthew 13 simply says that not all shall accept Christ and not all who sit in pews are born again.
 
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What an amazing discovery! Really? Isn't that amazing in the light of (a) John 14:1-3 and (b) Philippians 3:20? If our citizenship is in Heaven, and Christ is preparing mansions in Heaven for His saints, where else would believers go except to Heaven? The New Jerusalem is the heavenly city designed and built by God for His people. And that city is definitely in Heaven. Therefore Abraham looked for a city that has foundations, whose Builder and Maker is God. So how in the world can any Christian miss all this and claim that glorified believers will not go to Heaven? Did Enoch go to Heaven? Did Elijah go to Heaven? Are all the OT saints now in Heaven? Are all the NT saints who have passed on now in Heaven? Why don't you study the Bible before making OUTRAGEOUS statements?

I agree with everything you wrote here, I don't know how that is possible.
 
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We have no problem or conflict with Matthew 13, nor any other Scripture, for that matter. Matthew 13 simply says that not all shall accept Christ and not all who sit in pews are born again.
What?
 
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All the SAVED who are in heaven
The Resurrection of the Saints does not take place until His Second Coming which we see hat it occurs between chapter 19 and chapter 20.

Therefore, we are seeing the Spirits of the Saints in Heaven before God and with Christ.

QUESTION: Is God a Spirit?
 
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The Resurrection of the Saints does not take place until His Second Coming which we see hat it occurs between chapter 19 and chapter 20.

Therefore, we are seeing the Spirits of the Saints in Heaven before God and with Christ.

QUESTION: Is God a Spirit?

DO spirits wear robes? Do they walk and talk to each other? Did John fall down at 'a spirits' feet?

And please tell me where it says 'THE resurrection does not take place until He returns?

WHO DO YOU THINK makes up HIS ARMY?




1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.




1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?



42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
 
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Good Afternoon!


Seems others see you, David.

Pray for me as I pray for you!!

What is up with you? Are you just trying to stir up strife? If you aren't going to add to the conversation then please leave it alone. YOU HAVE MADE YOUR POINT ALREADY.
 
Jan 14, 2021
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DO spirits wear robes? Do they walk and talk to each other? Did John fall down at 'a spirits' feet?
John was there in spirit. How was he able to fall down at an angel's feet if John himself did not have a spirit body?

Therefore, yes, it follows that a spirit could have robes, etc.

Did John have a glorified spirit body? Or was this more like the spirit body of Samuel appearing to Saul?
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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Well either you or the Apostle Paul was fibbing - I believe the Apostle Paul and God who spoke to Abraham.
The apostle paul agrees with me (see romans 11)


Sorry bro. But you ignore half of scripture. And you flat out Call God an Indian giver and liar.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Do you have a clearly worded verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?

Please share if you do.

It doesn't. The question is straight forward. Why are you so hesitant to answer it?
This thread is about the 144000, I could care less about the rapture. You want to talk about the rapture open a new thread. Although I most likely will not follow.

once again, I could care less. And have no desire to pump your pride up.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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FACT - the 144,000 are His People = the Bride of Christ
144000 from Israel. Each tribe. No gentile is included
IMHO - the number 144,000 is symbolic of the Truth of the Body of Christ
It does not even concern the body of Christ. Your twisting the whole prophetic utterance and trying to make it somethign it is not
FACT - We, Jew and Gentile, make up His Bride
FACT - When we are Born-Again we are BORN into the ISRAEL of GOD
FACT - There is no separation between Jew & Gentile in the Bride and Body of Christ

Just a reminder: We can discuss and debate and still do it in the Love of Christ which PLEASES HIM and keeps us out of TROUBLE.

Fact,

The church consists of jew and gentile. The bride of Christ, there is no separation. There are no tribes, there are no seperation

Fact

There is 12000 from each tribe of Isreal.

Its not the church. Period.
 
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