Is prayer an act within the mind with outward expression or can it be internal?

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Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,862
4,513
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#1
I was watching a documentary on a man who had been tortured and imprisoned for 14 years due to his faith. Every night he would pray and every night he was beaten. He would be seen on his knees, hands folded, and head bowed.

I was thinking couldn't he just pray without outward expression? Wouldn't the prayer still be heard.

But I suppose he was using the outward expression to try and evangelize the guards and give hope to other prisoners.

Daniel was seen in his usual outward expression of prayer through his window of his private room. That of course, led to his night in the lion's den.

Jesus was seen in the garden face down in prayer.

It has me thinking does outward expression matter? Saying a prayer while driving seems to be just as efficient but your passenger may not even know.

Jesus gave us a model prayer and told us to pray in private. But does posture matter? Should it be like in reverence of a King or like a relationship with a friend?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,334
29,581
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#2
I believe outward expression does matter :) Partly because what we are told
it is necessary to confess with our mouth along with believing in our heart :D
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
4,783
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46
#3
I don’t think outward expression matters. it’s ultimately a personal thing but I don’t think it matters either way as long as we pray.



Matthew 6:6

English Standard Version



6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
 
L

Live4Him2

Guest
#4
I was watching a documentary on a man who had been tortured and imprisoned for 14 years due to his faith. Every night he would pray and every night he was beaten. He would be seen on his knees, hands folded, and head bowed.

I was thinking couldn't he just pray without outward expression? Wouldn't the prayer still be heard.

But I suppose he was using the outward expression to try and evangelize the guards and give hope to other prisoners.

Daniel was seen in his usual outward expression of prayer through his window of his private room. That of course, led to his night in the lion's den.

Jesus was seen in the garden face down in prayer.

It has me thinking does outward expression matter? Saying a prayer while driving seems to be just as efficient but your passenger may not even know.

Jesus gave us a model prayer and told us to pray in private. But does posture matter? Should it be like in reverence of a King or like a relationship with a friend?
First of all, I can't believe that you started this thread today because I was thinking about this exact question earlier today myself.

I'll be curious to see how people answer here.

That said, I'd like to offer the example of Hannah as a possible answer to your question:

I Samuel chapter 1

[1] Now there was a certain man of Ramathaim-zophim, of mount Ephraim, and his name was Elkanah, the son of Jeroham, the son of Elihu, the son of Tohu, the son of Zuph, an Ephrathite:
[2] And he had two wives; the name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other Peninnah: and Peninnah had children, but Hannah had no children.
[3] And this man went up out of his city yearly to worship and to sacrifice unto the LORD of hosts in Shiloh. And the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, the priests of the LORD, were there.
[4] And when the time was that Elkanah offered, he gave to Peninnah his wife, and to all her sons and her daughters, portions:
[5] But unto Hannah he gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but the LORD had shut up her womb.
[6] And her adversary also provoked her sore, for to make her fret, because the LORD had shut up her womb.
[7] And as he did so year by year, when she went up to the house of the LORD, so she provoked her; therefore she wept, and did not eat.
[8] Then said Elkanah her husband to her, Hannah, why weepest thou? and why eatest thou not? and why is thy heart grieved? am not I better to thee than ten sons?
[9] So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the LORD.
[10] And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the LORD, and wept sore.
[11] And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no rasor come upon his head.
[12] And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth.
[13] Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.
[14] And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee.
[15] And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.
[16] Count not thine handmaid for a daughter of Belial: for out of the abundance of my complaint and grief have I spoken hitherto.
[17] Then Eli answered and said, Go in peace: and the God of Israel grant thee thy petition that thou hast asked of him.
[18] And she said, Let thine handmaid find grace in thy sight. So the woman went her way, and did eat, and her countenance was no more sad.
[19] And they rose up in the morning early, and worshipped before the LORD, and returned, and came to their house to Ramah: and Elkanah knew Hannah his wife; and the LORD remembered her.
[20] Wherefore it came to pass, when the time was come about after Hannah had conceived, that she bare a son, and called his name Samuel, saying, Because I have asked him of the LORD.

Here, Hannah "prayed unto the LORD" and "vowed and vow" as "she spake IN HER HEART...but her voice was not heard".

Despite not speaking any words audibly, "the LORD remembered her" and "granted her the petition that she had asked of him".
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,177
5,727
113
#5
I was watching a documentary on a man who had been tortured and imprisoned for 14 years due to his faith. Every night he would pray and every night he was beaten. He would be seen on his knees, hands folded, and head bowed.

I was thinking couldn't he just pray without outward expression? Wouldn't the prayer still be heard.

But I suppose he was using the outward expression to try and evangelize the guards and give hope to other prisoners.

Daniel was seen in his usual outward expression of prayer through his window of his private room. That of course, led to his night in the lion's den.

Jesus was seen in the garden face down in prayer.

It has me thinking does outward expression matter? Saying a prayer while driving seems to be just as efficient but your passenger may not even know.

Jesus gave us a model prayer and told us to pray in private. But does posture matter? Should it be like in reverence of a King or like a relationship with a friend?
since God made us in his image and he speaks creation forth I personally think speaking it matters , but also what about the dumb who can’t speak ? I think individual circumstance matters also.

mans design is to hear the word and understand the word and also speak and communicate by the word. But I don’t think it’s a hardened rule or anything some literally can’t speak I’m sure the lord hears us however we speak to him.

I do think the design is for us to act on Gods ways d one of his ways is through words expressed outwardly that originate within the heart and mind.

and in a relationship of reverence toward a father would be in my view the right disposition reverent fear but recognizing he deeply loves us. Like a smaller child with thier father. Not afraid but reverent and always respectful and thankful.
 
L

Live4Him2

Guest
#6
P.S.

Ironically, the prophet Samuel was the answer to Hannah's prayer that "she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard" (I Samuel 1:13).

Why ironically?

Well, we read the following about Samuel:

"And Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground." (I Samuel 3:19)

The one who was given as the answer to a voiceless prayer never had any of his words fall to the ground.

Anyhow...
 

blueskies

Active member
Apr 2, 2022
150
122
43
Pacific Northwest
#7
Every night he would pray and every night he was beaten. He would be seen on his knees, hands folded, and head bowed.
One thing that anyone who’s been imprisoned will attest to is there is a real lack of privacy, this by design. It was likely difficult or impossible to pray his accustomed way without notice. If he was observed in his confinement, praying his normal way, then, was he was following scripture or should he have hidden his prayers from his tormentors?
What does scripture say about this?
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,559
656
113
#8
God hears our thoughts so it wouldn't matter with Him hearing your heart.
That being said, it would matter to everyone who would hear you as it's a witness to them.
Imagine if Jesus only prayed in His mind... lots of precious teachings would have been lost, because nobody would have heard him.
 

Ogom

Active member
Aug 22, 2020
385
100
43
ogom.co
#9
I was watching a documentary on a man who had been tortured and imprisoned for 14 years due to his faith. Every night he would pray and every night he was beaten. He would be seen on his knees, hands folded, and head bowed.

I was thinking couldn't he just pray without outward expression? Wouldn't the prayer still be heard.

But I suppose he was using the outward expression to try and evangelize the guards and give hope to other prisoners.

Daniel was seen in his usual outward expression of prayer through his window of his private room. That of course, led to his night in the lion's den.

Jesus was seen in the garden face down in prayer.

It has me thinking does outward expression matter? Saying a prayer while driving seems to be just as efficient but your passenger may not even know.

Jesus gave us a model prayer and told us to pray in private. But does posture matter? Should it be like in reverence of a King or like a relationship with a friend?

seeking the Spirit's answers on these matters, plus experience over time can lead to the answers.

"... become as a child" ................. "the who thinks he knows does not yet know as he ought to know"
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,862
4,513
113
#10
I believe outward expression does matter :) Partly because what we are told
it is necessary to confess with our mouth along with believing in our heart :D
Hmmm... That is another element of audible speaking. I see both audible and silent prayers in scripture but what about posture? The man in prison was beaten because they could see him praying.

Here is one example of casual posture.

shutterstock_1221529513.jpg

Here is an example of no posture but the man could still be praying and you wouldn't even know it.

1.jpg

Here is an example of full posture that is often mentioned in Scripture using the word prostrate.


Matthew 4:9
New International Version


9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

knees-praying.jpg

Does it matter how to pray?
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,862
4,513
113
#11
I don’t think outward expression matters. it’s ultimately a personal thing but I don’t think it matters either way as long as we pray.



Matthew 6:6

English Standard Version



6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
I personally have prayed many different ways. I have prayed sitting, standing, on my knees, in silence, out loud, short prayers, long prayers, etc. But I have always wondered should I always try to mimic how Jesus prayed like in the garden.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,862
4,513
113
#12
First of all, I can't believe that you started this thread today because I was thinking about this exact question earlier today myself.

I'll be curious to see how people answer here.

That said, I'd like to offer the example of Hannah as a possible answer to your question:

I Samuel chapter 1

[1] Now there was a certain man of Ramathaim-zophim, of mount Ephraim, and his name was Elkanah, the son of Jeroham, the son of Elihu, the son of Tohu, the son of Zuph, an Ephrathite:
[2] And he had two wives; the name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other Peninnah: and Peninnah had children, but Hannah had no children.
[3] And this man went up out of his city yearly to worship and to sacrifice unto the LORD of hosts in Shiloh. And the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, the priests of the LORD, were there.
[4] And when the time was that Elkanah offered, he gave to Peninnah his wife, and to all her sons and her daughters, portions:
[5] But unto Hannah he gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but the LORD had shut up her womb.
[6] And her adversary also provoked her sore, for to make her fret, because the LORD had shut up her womb.
[7] And as he did so year by year, when she went up to the house of the LORD, so she provoked her; therefore she wept, and did not eat.
[8] Then said Elkanah her husband to her, Hannah, why weepest thou? and why eatest thou not? and why is thy heart grieved? am not I better to thee than ten sons?
[9] So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the LORD.
[10] And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the LORD, and wept sore.
[11] And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no rasor come upon his head.
[12] And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth.
[13] Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.
[14] And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee.
[15] And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.
[16] Count not thine handmaid for a daughter of Belial: for out of the abundance of my complaint and grief have I spoken hitherto.
[17] Then Eli answered and said, Go in peace: and the God of Israel grant thee thy petition that thou hast asked of him.
[18] And she said, Let thine handmaid find grace in thy sight. So the woman went her way, and did eat, and her countenance was no more sad.
[19] And they rose up in the morning early, and worshipped before the LORD, and returned, and came to their house to Ramah: and Elkanah knew Hannah his wife; and the LORD remembered her.
[20] Wherefore it came to pass, when the time was come about after Hannah had conceived, that she bare a son, and called his name Samuel, saying, Because I have asked him of the LORD.

Here, Hannah "prayed unto the LORD" and "vowed and vow" as "she spake IN HER HEART...but her voice was not heard".

Despite not speaking any words audibly, "the LORD remembered her" and "granted her the petition that she had asked of him".
Wow that is supernaturally crazy awesome lol.

That reminds me of these two verses.

Romans 8:26-27 ESV
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,862
4,513
113
#13
since God made us in his image and he speaks creation forth I personally think speaking it matters , but also what about the dumb who can’t speak ? I think individual circumstance matters also.

mans design is to hear the word and understand the word and also speak and communicate by the word. But I don’t think it’s a hardened rule or anything some literally can’t speak I’m sure the lord hears us however we speak to him.

I do think the design is for us to act on Gods ways d one of his ways is through words expressed outwardly that originate within the heart and mind.

and in a relationship of reverence toward a father would be in my view the right disposition reverent fear but recognizing he deeply loves us. Like a smaller child with thier father. Not afraid but reverent and always respectful and thankful.
I do lean more towards a reverence or awe of mighty King but combined with the knowledge that Jesus is a friend to those who abide, God is like a Father, and God is love so I have always approached God with respect but like a loving relationship.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,862
4,513
113
#14
One thing that anyone who’s been imprisoned will attest to is there is a real lack of privacy, this by design. It was likely difficult or impossible to pray his accustomed way without notice. If he was observed in his confinement, praying his normal way, then, was he was following scripture or should he have hidden his prayers from his tormentors?
What does scripture say about this?
Yeah but I was thinking to myself why make the gesture when you could pray within the mind and no one would know. But that got me thinking does it matter. I suppose he used prayer as an evangelist method.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,862
4,513
113
#15
God hears our thoughts so it wouldn't matter with Him hearing your heart.
That being said, it would matter to everyone who would hear you as it's a witness to them.
Imagine if Jesus only prayed in His mind... lots of precious teachings would have been lost, because nobody would have heard him.
But Jesus also said it was better to pray in silent. But teaching is different than prayer.
 

blueskies

Active member
Apr 2, 2022
150
122
43
Pacific Northwest
#16
I suppose he used prayer as an evangelist method.
Possibly, I, we, can’t know. People imprisoned have limited control over their lives and environment. What seem to be small things can become very important. Could have been an act of faith or an act of defiance, or both.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#17
I was watching a documentary on a man who had been tortured and imprisoned for 14 years due to his faith. Every night he would pray and every night he was beaten. He would be seen on his knees, hands folded, and head bowed.

I was thinking couldn't he just pray without outward expression? Wouldn't the prayer still be heard.

But I suppose he was using the outward expression to try and evangelize the guards and give hope to other prisoners.

Daniel was seen in his usual outward expression of prayer through his window of his private room. That of course, led to his night in the lion's den.

Jesus was seen in the garden face down in prayer.

It has me thinking does outward expression matter? Saying a prayer while driving seems to be just as efficient but your passenger may not even know.

Jesus gave us a model prayer and told us to pray in private. But does posture matter? Should it be like in reverence of a King or like a relationship with a friend?
We are given many instructions about how to handle our enemies, and I don't find any of them that instructs to defy them. We are to resist not evil, for the Lord is has dominion over evil. We are to cling to the good of the Lord, doing good for our enemies and let God take care of judging the evil.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#18
But Jesus also said it was better to pray in silent. But teaching is different than prayer.
Scripture even tells us how to teach. We are to tell of the Lord, but if our students don't want to listen we are to wipe the dust from our feet and leave.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,429
6,707
113
#19
I was watching a documentary on a man who had been tortured and imprisoned for 14 years due to his faith. Every night he would pray and every night he was beaten. He would be seen on his knees, hands folded, and head bowed.

I was thinking couldn't he just pray without outward expression? Wouldn't the prayer still be heard.

But I suppose he was using the outward expression to try and evangelize the guards and give hope to other prisoners.

Daniel was seen in his usual outward expression of prayer through his window of his private room. That of course, led to his night in the lion's den.

Jesus was seen in the garden face down in prayer.

It has me thinking does outward expression matter? Saying a prayer while driving seems to be just as efficient but your passenger may not even know.

Jesus gave us a model prayer and told us to pray in private. But does posture matter? Should it be like in reverence of a King or like a relationship with a friend?
For what it is worth, my own experience is having had unsp9oken prayer heard and acted upon.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#20
I was watching a documentary on a man who had been tortured and imprisoned for 14 years due to his faith. Every night he would pray and every night he was beaten. He would be seen on his knees, hands folded, and head bowed.

I was thinking couldn't he just pray without outward expression? Wouldn't the prayer still be heard.

But I suppose he was using the outward expression to try and evangelize the guards and give hope to other prisoners.

Daniel was seen in his usual outward expression of prayer through his window of his private room. That of course, led to his night in the lion's den.

Jesus was seen in the garden face down in prayer.

It has me thinking does outward expression matter? Saying a prayer while driving seems to be just as efficient but your passenger may not even know.

Jesus gave us a model prayer and told us to pray in private. But does posture matter? Should it be like in reverence of a King or like a relationship with a friend?
after 45 years saved I still have no definitive answer to that one. I mostly pray inwardly ... expressed sometimes in sighs or expressions of joy or praise.