Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
DavidTree

DavidTree

Banned
#1,181
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
#1,181
TDidymas said:
Your response indicates to me that you don't think that I am well-aware of what Acts and 1 Cor. says on the subject, or that I have no experience of the issue at hand. I'm not looking for your advice. I'm looking for clear evidence that any modern tongues is a human language. So I ask again, do you know of a church where that kind of tongues is practiced?
Click to expand...
They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and HE only speaks TRUTH.

The Spirit of Truth says: Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God,
for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

You and JeffA are fighting against the Truth, therefore your desire does not come from Him who called you out of darkness.

The Holy Spirit will not grant to either of you your desires and just as the error of John McArthur, this you will follow as you now already do.
 
P

peldom10

Banned
#1,182
May 22, 2020
2,382
358
83
#1,182
DavidTree said:
Just as the Scripture says: "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God."

This is a personal, powerful prayer language that was given by the Holy Spirit to the individual whereby the individual is edified greatly in their spirit and God hears them and HE understands the things being spoken by the Spirit.

So we can see from Scripture in 1 Corinthians chapter 14

A.) "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God."
B.) "The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, "
C.) "I wish that all of you could speak in tongues"
D.) "So, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues"
E.) "But everything must be done in a proper and orderly manner."

Peace
Click to expand...
I understand on the...purpose.
What about where .......if not in church? Response to that question was not included in your post.
Also, you have an unanswered question in post 1180.
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

Banned
#1,184
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
#1,184
peldom10 said:
I understand on the...purpose.
What about where .......if not in church? Response to that question was not included in your post.
Click to expand...
The Gift of speaking in Tongues is indeed a Blessing from the Holy Spirit, as such the Body of Christ can and will benefit from it when they are in submission to Christ, in accord with each other and there is someone with the Gift to interpret.
It should not be blurted out randomly/haphazardly which is the error found in some churches.
The Holy Spirit/Scripture does not agree nor condone with this behavior and neither do i.

Therefore, the BEST Place for praying in "Tongues" (if you truly have the Gift) is in your heart/spirit before the LORD, just as our LORD told us to do.

"And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you [openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words."
Matthew 6:5-7

Peace
 
P

peldom10

Banned
#1,185
May 22, 2020
2,382
358
83
#1,185
DavidTree said:
The Gift of speaking in Tongues is indeed a Blessing from the Holy Spirit, as such the Body of Christ can and will benefit from it when they are in submission to Christ, in accord with each other and there is someone with the Gift to interpret.
It should not be blurted out randomly/haphazardly which is the error found in some churches.
The Holy Spirit/Scripture does not agree nor condone with this behavior and neither do i.

Therefore, the BEST Place for praying in "Tongues" (if you truly have the Gift) is in your heart/spirit before the LORD, just as our LORD told us to do.

"And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you [openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words."
Matthew 6:5-7

Peace
Click to expand...

To and subjected to scriptures....praying publicly is expected ......and that includes church.
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

Banned
#1,186
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
#1,186
peldom10 said:
To and subjected to scriptures....praying publicly is expected ......and that includes church.
Click to expand...
Good thing your here to show me that Jesus was wrong.

A.) There does not exist before God a single building made by man that HE recognizes as a 'church'.
B.) Matthew 6:5-7 is the command set forth for us to follow/believe/obey/walk in.
C.) When we are to pray in public it is only to be done by the unction of the Holy Spirit just as our LORD set forth in His own Life.
D.) Praying when together as a true "called out" assembly by the Father unto Christ under the Leadership of the Holy Spirit
is not 'public prayer'.
E.) return to Matthew 6:5-7
F.) Worship unto the LORD is both individually private and corporately(His Body) private.
G.) with today's technology the outside world is able to look inside - God uses all things for His Purpose and Glory
H.) propheteers love to make merchandise of God's word, Historical content and public display of worship and prayer
i.) Preaching the Word and Evangelizing in the Power of the Spirit is for PUBLIC Audience = Acts and Romans ch10
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

Banned
#1,187
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
#1,187
peldom10 said:
To and subjected to scriptures....praying publicly is expected ......and that includes church.
Click to expand...
UPDATED but not Exhaustive

A.) There does not exist before God a single building made by man that HE recognizes as a 'church'.
B.) Matthew 6:5-7 is the command set forth for us to follow/believe/obey/walk in.
C.) When we are to pray in public it is only to be done by the unction of the Holy Spirit just as our LORD set forth in His own Life.
D.) Praying when together as a true "called out" assembly by the Father unto Christ under the Leadership of the Holy Spirit
is not 'public prayer'.
E.) return to Matthew 6:5-7
F.) Worship unto the LORD is both individually private and corporately(His Body) private.
G.) with today's technology the outside world is able to look inside - God uses all things for His Purpose and Glory
H.) propheteers love to make merchandise of God's word, Historical content and public display of worship and prayer
i.) Preaching the Word and Evangelizing in the Power of the Spirit is for PUBLIC Audience = Acts and Romans ch10
which brings us right back to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit

J.) COMMAND/PURPOSE//GLORY = And while they were gathered together, He commanded them:
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the Promise of the Father, which you have heard from ME.
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
...you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be MY witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

K.) Believe God at His Word, in faith reach out to HIM, believe what HE says is GOOD and empty yourself at HIS Feet and HE will Fill you UP.
And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins—and the wine is destroyed, and so are the skins. But NEW Wine is for NEW Wineskins.”

"Every good and perfect gift is from above, comes down from the Father of the heavenly lights, with whom there is no change or shifting shadow.
 
JeffA

JeffA

Minstrel
#1,188
Mar 31, 2022
360
72
28
#1,188
DavidTree said:
They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and HE only speaks TRUTH.

The Spirit of Truth says: Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God,
for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

You and JeffA are fighting against the Truth, therefore your desire does not come from Him who called you out of darkness.

The Holy Spirit will not grant to either of you your desires and just as the error of John McArthur, this you will follow as you now already do.
Click to expand...
I'm afraid that you don't know me, or the truth.
 
JeffA

JeffA

Minstrel
#1,189
Mar 31, 2022
360
72
28
#1,189
OP is 100% correct in his analysis of both the roots and the fruit of the practice of speaking in tongues.
 
O

Oblio

Guest
#1,190
#1,190
Perhaps we need to find something that we can all agree on...perhaps shooting wild hogs from a helicopter with automatic weapons.
I haven't done it, but it looks like fun! Oh...they are terrible invasive pests and do terrible ecological and economical damage.
 
JeffA

JeffA

Minstrel
#1,191
Mar 31, 2022
360
72
28
#1,191
Speaking in tongues is no more a sign of the holy spirit than water baptism washes sins away.
Both practices have been abused to the point of driving people away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
There are quite a few people on this site that think every instruction that Jesus gave his disciples were for them.
I have seen so many cases of people being goaded and guilted into "the fellowship" that they finally leave it in disgust.
There is no "public display" required for our salvation. Neither is evangelizing a duty.

I think it is hilarious to see someone get pinned down as to their misuse or misunderstanding of "tongue" or "water baptism".
100% of the time they resort to belittling, patronizing and condescending the one who took them to the mat.
It only shows that their hearts are hardened against the truth. They have nothing left but to lash out.
 
JeffA

JeffA

Minstrel
#1,192
Mar 31, 2022
360
72
28
#1,192
Oblio said:
Perhaps we need to find something that we can all agree on...perhaps shooting wild hogs from a helicopter with automatic weapons.
I haven't done it, but it looks like fun! Oh...they are terrible invasive pests and do terrible ecological and economical damage.
Click to expand...
I tried to get a group together for an Easter Bunny hunt this weekend.
 
JeffA

JeffA

Minstrel
#1,193
Mar 31, 2022
360
72
28
#1,193
Oblio said:
Perhaps we need to find something that we can all agree on...perhaps shooting wild hogs from a helicopter with automatic weapons.
I haven't done it, but it looks like fun! Oh...they are terrible invasive pests and do terrible ecological and economical damage.
Click to expand...
Thank you for that! I love that song, too.
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

Banned
#1,194
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
#1,194
JeffA said:
OP is 100% correct in his analysis of both the roots and the fruit of the practice of speaking in tongues.
Click to expand...
Dear JeffA:
1. you claim "God's name not in the Bible" = this is a lie against Scripture = John ch1 , Acts 4:8-12 , Phillipians 2:5-11
2. your second error was to speak against the Gifts of the Holy Spirit = Post #959
3. your third error is calling the Holy Spirit and His Gift of Speaking in Tongues as unholy and not from God. = Post #959, #1,189, #1,191
whereby you set yourself as judge over your Brethren who worship and pray by the Holy Spirit in the Gift of Tongues

JeffA, RA and anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit Gifts that the FATHER has been pouring out since Pentecost (Acts) until the Coming of the LORD (Acts & 1 Corinthians) is in willful sin.
They will give an account for every word spoken against the the Holy Spirit and those who have been Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

The Record of TRUTH concerning the Gifts of the Holy Spirit for the Bride of Christ/His Body/His Church unto His Coming is irrevocable and recorded in Genesis, Gospel of John, Acts, 1 Corinthians, James and 1 John.

"Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

Dear LORD Jesus Christ, i thank you for everyone who comes on here to learn and to share. Some do for your Glory and others in unbelief and error.
My prayer to You LORD, is that You would teach JeffA and RA not to blaspheme and call your Holy Spirit and the Gifts as "unholy", thereby exalting themselves above the Blessings and Workings of the Spirit of God.
Dear LORD Jesus Christ please remind everyone that You purchased, with Your Suffering on the Cross, the Gifts for Your Bride as spoken of in Genesis, Acts and 1 Corinthians.
Bless JeffA that he would also learn not to speak against your Word and your Name as recorded for us in Scripture.
 
O

Oblio

Guest
#1,195
#1,195
Putting all the frauds and foolishness aside, speaking against the Lord gifting people with tongues is speaking against what the Lord does. I guess if one is speaking in ignorance, it might not be the unforgivable sin, but it's still not cool.
I understand that some think that the perfect came (the canon) and that the gifts were done away with. That's an unfortunate reading of the text. It would be nice if we could just agree to disagree, and get along.
 
JeffA

JeffA

Minstrel
#1,196
Mar 31, 2022
360
72
28
#1,196
DavidTree said:
Dear JeffA:
1. you claim "God's name not in the Bible" = this is a lie against Scripture = John ch1 , Acts 4:8-12 , Phillipians 2:5-11
2. your second error was to speak against the Gifts of the Holy Spirit = Post #959
3. your third error is calling the Holy Spirit and His Gift of Speaking in Tongues as unholy and not from God. = Post #959, #1,189, #1,191
whereby you set yourself as judge over your Brethren who worship and pray by the Holy Spirit in the Gift of Tongues

JeffA, RA and anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit Gifts that the FATHER has been pouring out since Pentecost (Acts) until the Coming of the LORD (Acts & 1 Corinthians) is in willful sin.
They will give an account for every word spoken against the the Holy Spirit and those who have been Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

The Record of TRUTH concerning the Gifts of the Holy Spirit for the Bride of Christ/His Body/His Church unto His Coming is irrevocable and recorded in Genesis, Gospel of John, Acts, 1 Corinthians, James and 1 John.

"Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

Dear LORD Jesus Christ, i thank you for everyone who comes on here to learn and to share. Some do for your Glory and others in unbelief and error.
My prayer to You LORD, is that You would teach JeffA and RA not to blaspheme and call your Holy Spirit and the Gifts as "unholy", thereby exalting themselves above the Blessings and Workings of the Spirit of God.
Dear LORD Jesus Christ please remind everyone that You purchased, with Your Suffering on the Cross, the Gifts for Your Bride as spoken of in Genesis, Acts and 1 Corinthians.
Bless JeffA that he would also learn not to speak against your Word and your Name as recorded for us in Scripture.
Click to expand...
I claimed, in truth and proven out, that God's NAME "YHWH" was translated out of the Bible in favor of a title that can be attributed to ANYONE. This is a point of fact, not opinion.

As anyone can see in my posts, I speak against the USE of tongues in a public setting. It neither edifies, nor is beneficial to anyone.
"Tongues" is not described in scripture as an "uncontrolled, nonsensical utterance". It had purpose, and benefit.
Read Acts again.
John related that (he who practices) baptism in water is unworthy of tying the sandal laces of (He who practices) baptism in Holy Spirit, yet it is elevated to the status of equivalence and taught as a requirement unto salvation.
The same with "Tongues". It is latched onto as a requirement to be demonstrated as proof of Holy Spirit baptism.

These PRACTICES are what I speak against. It turns people away from the Gospel.
I also stated that my posts (and anyone else's, for that matter) are OPINIONS as to our understanding of scripture.
My opinion is that it is you that is in error. You should pray for clarity.
And you should CAN your silly Pharisaic chant of "heresy and blasphemy".
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

Banned
#1,197
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
#1,197
JeffA said:
I claimed, in truth and proven out, that God's NAME "YHWH" was translated out of the Bible in favor of a title that can be attributed to ANYONE. This is a point of fact, not opinion.

As anyone can see in my posts, I speak against the USE of tongues in a public setting. It neither edifies, nor is beneficial to anyone.
"Tongues" is not described in scripture as an "uncontrolled, nonsensical utterance". It had purpose, and benefit.
Read Acts again.
John related that (he who practices) baptism in water is unworthy of tying the sandal laces of (He who practices) baptism in Holy Spirit, yet it is elevated to the status of equivalence and taught as a requirement unto salvation.
The same with "Tongues". It is latched onto as a requirement to be demonstrated as proof of Holy Spirit baptism.

These PRACTICES are what I speak against. It turns people away from the Gospel.
I also stated that my posts (and anyone else's, for that matter) are OPINIONS as to our understanding of scripture.
My opinion is that it is you that is in error. You should pray for clarity.
And you should CAN your silly Pharisaic chant of "heresy and blasphemy".
Click to expand...
Actually, you are the pharisee here with your chant of "unclean spirit".
Repent JeffA
 
P

peldom10

Banned
#1,199
May 22, 2020
2,382
358
83
#1,199
DavidTree said:
The Gift of speaking in Tongues is indeed a Blessing from the Holy Spirit, as such the Body of Christ can and will benefit from it when they are in submission to Christ, in accord with each other and there is someone with the Gift to interpret.
It should not be blurted out randomly/haphazardly which is the error found in some churches.
The Holy Spirit/Scripture does not agree nor condone with this behavior and neither do i.

Therefore, the BEST Place for praying in "Tongues" (if you truly have the Gift) is in your heart/spirit before the LORD, just as our LORD told us to do.

"And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you [openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words."
Matthew 6:5-7

Peace
Click to expand...
You keep skirting the question.
Never mind.
 
TDidymas

TDidymas

Active member
#1,200
Oct 27, 2021
311
69
28
#1,200
DavidTree said:
They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and HE only speaks TRUTH.

The Spirit of Truth says: Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God,
for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

You and JeffA are fighting against the Truth, therefore your desire does not come from Him who called you out of darkness.

The Holy Spirit will not grant to either of you your desires and just as the error of John McArthur, this you will follow as you now already do.
Click to expand...
No, you're wrong, as I'm not fighting against the truth. The Spirit is the truth, according to the apostle John, and I'm trying to discover and reveal the truth of the matter, so therefore I have the Spirit.

But your quoting scripture and presuming you have the truth, when in reality you don't have a leg to stand on, as shown by the fact that you can't (or won't) answer the question. Therefore, by your response, I take it as a NO, you do not know anywhere that tongues known to be human languages are practiced.

But your "mystical" and "mysterious" answer is nothing but B.S. because you aren't even using those scriptures the way the scriptures uses them. From where I'm looking, all you have is Pentecostal tradition wrapped up with Christian jargon.

And my contention is that modern tongues is not of God, because it's not miraculous and not a language. It's a human ability, and therefore is of the flesh, and of this world. Obviously, you disagree. But if you want to defend what you have, you'll have to do a lot better than this.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.