You need both water baptism and the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit.

...timed out...

Please, how is baptism hurting anyone?

Precious friend, thanks for your good offer, And, yes, Correct:

BOTH water and Baptism With The Holy Ghost, was For Israel, and
The Earthly kingdom of Christ, who, on earth, taught 12 apostles
which He commissioned And sent to baptize. This is Within
God's Context of:

prophecy/law

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

However, In God's Other Context of:

Mystery And GRACE, For us, The ONE Body Of Christ, Today:

Christ, from Heaven, Revealed to Paul, His (Hidden) Mystery, In Which
we learn that "THE ONE apostle to the Gentiles" (Rom 11:13), has a
Different commission (in 2Co 5:18-20) than the Twelve. He says:
"Christ sent me Not to baptize, but to preach the Gospel." (1Co 1:17)

And, God's Truth To Paul Was, That There Is Now Only ONE Baptism
(Ephesians 4:5), and That ONE Is Spiritual (1 Corinthians 12:13), BY
The Holy Spirit, for God's Salvation And Induction Into The Spiritual
Body Of Christ, Seated In The Heavenlies! Amen?
------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: Mixing "Things That Differ" always causes Confusion.
-------------------------
There is more Scriptural Confirmation on God's Two Different
programs, here: God's Approval/Two Different Gospels!

and here: "Distinctions" In God's prophecy vs Mystery!

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In HIS Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Grace And Peace...

Precious friend, Today There Is Only ONE Baptism (or see #162 above)

To answer your question of water baptism hurting anyone?

Are you not yet aware Of the following Massive Confusion of
denominational [Condemned ] traditions "hurting Many"!? ie:

1) believe AND be baptized {i.e. immersion to contact their Christ's blood}?

2) immersion with a symbolic interpretation?

3) immersion ONCE in the "name of Jesus?

4) immersion THRICE in the "name of the Triune Godhead?

5) immersion {whether once or thrice} for "membership" in their traditional assembly?

6) sprinkling water on babies inducting them into religion washing away their original sin?

7) sprinkling water on babies inducting them into some covenant?

8) sprinkling water on babies inducting them into their parent's custody that they promise to raise them right? {into Mass Confusion?}

9) sprinkling water on babies, admitting that their ritual is UNscriptural, but "we do it anyway, because it is OUR tradition!"?

10) pouring water onto babies or adults for Whatever traditional reason religion "can come up with"?

11) immersion of young and middle-aged women 'similar' to worldly/ungodly 'wet t-shirt' contests?

12) immersion Discriminates Against ALL "those who CANNOT 'obey' this ritual" ie: the hospitalized, the bedridden, the homebound, the invalids, the traumatized, etc.
-----------------------------
God is not the author of all this "carnal Confusion" (1Co 3:1, 14:33), Correct?

GRACE And Peace...

Ever notice there is not a Biblical example of anyone ever getting water baptized more than one time, but people can have more than one Holy Spirit baptism? (If we count "Being filled with the Holy Spirit" as the baptism of the Holy Spirit)

Now what is the "one baptism?"

Technically there is at least one recorded group that was baptized twice. The group of 12 in Acts 19. They were baptized under what seems to be a partial version of John's baptism, then again in the name of Jesus once Paul shared the missing pieces of understanding.

That group impresses me . They were willing to admit they might have been taught only partially, and perhaps even wrong at that. And they admitted they hadn't heard of the Holy Ghost when Paul asked them about it instead of claiming to have it the moment they hear of it. And they stuck around until they got it. (Yay Jesus!)

I've met at least one like that, who got baptized in the name of JESUS for remission of sins when he realized he'd been taught wrong.. and then received the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues just like that group of 12 did (minus the prophesying).

I know that's a little off your point, but it doesn't hurt to share that God still works the same today.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

BTW, I had to ask God about Ephesians 4:5 similar to how I had to ask him about what they call "the great commission" in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Because... there is a baptism in water and there is a baptism with the Spirit. So...I wondered and asked...Why does that only mention "one baptism" and seemingly leaving it questionable as to which baptism he is talking about? (Water or Spirit) Why doesn't it mention both spirit baptism and water baptism in that passage?

The answer is that it DOES mention both spirit and water baptisms in that passage. The passage begins in verse 4, where he specifically lists the one Spirit (Holy Ghost), and simply continues to list other items that are part of that unity of the body of believers...and one baptism (in water for remission of sins) is another of those things. He's not listing the Spirit twice.

The reason I mentioned "the great commission" in the 4 gospels is because I'd had to ask the same question about each of them. "Why do they not each mention both baptism (in water for remission of sins) and receiving the Holy Ghost?" The answer is again that they DO... but each words it differently, and it probably takes God opening the eyes before a person can see it. (He had to show me...I couldn't see it until he did.)

My favorite wording regarding baptism for remission of sins is probably John 20:22-23. He doesn't even say "Go baptize". He just says (paraphrased) "If you don't remit their sins (which is what baptism accomplishes), then they'll still have their sins". That's about as clear of a statement of necessity as it gets... But it's only clear IF the person believes what baptism is stated to be for...Mark 1:4 & Luke 3:3. And if a person can see it is written but cannot seem to believe it means what it say, that's what going to God in prayer is FOR. "Help mine unbelief" is how one person successfully prayed to get what he needed.

God seems to be more interested in who you are looking towards rather than where you might be starting from. (Focus on God. He can overcome anything standing between you and him.)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Wow great find and I didn’t even know about that for some reason. Thanks a lot. Now I have no idea what the “one baptism” is. Do you?

This guy is pushing 'works salvation' for sure.

I hope folks know that water baptism is a "work." Why? Because it requires two people to complete. Both are involved in the act of water baptism. NO MAN will be saved by "works." PERIOD!

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is done BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.......not by works of man.

WATER BAPTISM IS NOT REQUIRED FOR ETERNAL SALVATION!!!

BTW......the old argument remains that there is NO RECORD of the 12 Disciples being water baptized............NO RECORD.

As for their being told to tarry and wait for the Holy Ghost.......this WAS NOT for the Holy Ghost baptism, it was for the "indwelling presence" of the Holy Ghost which made those in the Upper Room the first SANCTIFIED BELIEVERS. The first to have the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost, and their receiving the "gifts of the Spirit" which allowed them to preach the Gospel of Jesus to all peoples in all their languages.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at salvation. The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit MAY occur at salvation, and may not. Not all people repent and come to Jesus in a Congregational setting. They could be out in a field working, walking through the woods, at work some place, or other situations.

To receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, the person must have "SANCTIFIED BELIEVERS" gather around them, lay hands on them and pray. The Apostle Paul made this quite clear.

The fact that there were no sanctified believers at the time of Pentecost is why the Holy Spirit came down to them in the Upper Room. From that point on, sanctification happens as the Apostle Paul taught.

WORKS SALVATION EQUALS WATER BAPTISM!

The Holy Spirit baptism is at the time of salvation. When the blood of Jesus is applied to cleanse us and make us worthy to be called children of God. This baptism is described as the Holy Spirit "setting upon" us.

The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit IS NOT a baptism. It is the time when we are SANCTIFIED with His indwelling presence and is the beginning of our becoming "spiritual believers." Given the wisdom of the Holy Spirit to understand Scripture on a spiritual level and not just the carnal/earthy level of the new believer who sups on milk and honey.....

One can receive "infusions" of the Holy Spirit. When we are faced with circumstances beyond our abilities. He infuses us with His power to overcome!

KellyofGod said

Technically there is at least one recorded group that was baptized twice. The group of 12 in Acts 19. They were baptized under what seems to be a partial version of John's baptism, then again in the name of Jesus once Paul shared the missing pieces of understanding.

Acts, Chapter 19 is where we are shown HOW believers become SANCTIFIED. Filled with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

This clearly shows that Sanctification does NOT occur with water baptism. It occurs with the laying on of hands and praying over by other sanctified believers. In this instance: the Apostle Paul.

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7And all the men were about twelve.

Amazing! You claim you "will follow God's Word" and then immediately distort His Word by leaving out the first part of 1 Pet 3:21, which plainly says that literal water is symbolic of the baptism that does save. Quite different than your distortion.

This is just hypocritical.

Let's look at the whole context, shall we?

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. ”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

In v.3 Jesus told Nic one must be "born again" to see/enter the kingdom of God.
In v.4 we see Nic's confusion. He was thinking of a second PHYSICAL BIRTH.
So, in v.5, Jesus clarifies by telling him that one must be born physically AND spiritually.

Mystery solved. So, v.5 is based on what Nic said in v.4 and clarifies for Nic that the second birth isn't physical, as he tried to understand, but spiritual.

"for the remission/forgiveness of sins"

From: http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/new_testament_studies/VOL03B/VOL03B_02.html

The theological question is how does "for" (eis) function? Is forgiveness linked to "repent" or "be baptized"? Is forgiveness dependent on repentance and/or baptism?
The possible uses of eis are multiple. The most common use is "with a view to" or "for this purpose of." Most Baptist scholars choose "because of" for theological reasons, but it is a minor option. Often our presuppositions even function at this grammatical analysis level. We must let the Bible speak in context; then check the parallels; then form our systematic theologies. All interpreters are historically, denominationally, and experientially conditioned.
Forgiveness through faith in Christ is a recurrent theme in these sermons in Acts (i.e., Peter 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43; and Paul 13:38).

So, how about stopping abusing this verse.

More abuse of a verse. Cornelius and family/friends received the Holy Spirit (baptism of the Spirit) and were saved BEFORE any of them were water baptized. So v.47 in no way supports your claims.

PQUOTE]Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.[/QUOTE]
From: http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/new_testament_studies/VOL03B/VOL03B_22.html

"be baptized and wash away your sins" These are both AORIST MIDDLE IMPERATIVES. This is an OT allusion to the ceremonial ablutions (cf. Lev. 11:25,28,40; 13:6,34,56; 14:8-9; 15:5-13,21-22,27; 16:26,28; 17:15-16; Num. 8:7,21; 19:19; Deut. 23:11). It is used here as a symbol of our spiritual cleansing in Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 6:11; Eph. 5:26; Titus 3:5; Heb. 10:22). Baptism was the early Church's public profession of faith.
Notice that the MIDDLE VOICE refers to both baptism (AORIST MIDDLE IMPERATIVE) and cleansing (AORIST MIDDLE IMPERATIVE). Paul could not wash away his sins, but he could baptize himself (Jewish practice for proselytes). Often it is said that immersion is the only NT pattern (cf. Romans 6 and Colossians 2), but here baptism is linked to the metaphor of washing (cf. Acts 2:38; 1 Cor. 6:11; Eph. 5:26; Titus 3:5; Heb. 10:22). Theologically 1 Pet. 3:21 shows that it is a symbol, not a sacrament!
Modern interpreters must be careful of basing too much on the MIDDLE or PASSIVE VOICE because these were merging into the PASSIVE form in Koine Greek. Paul is said to have been baptized (PASSIVE) in Acts 9:18. The mode of Paul's baptism is not the issue, but his baptism itself is!

v.26 is the key: we are God's children by faith, not by abptism. To be "baptized into Christ" is a clear reference to positional truth, in that our baptism of the Holy Spirit places the believer IN UNION with Christ, as Eph 1;13,14 clearly state.

v.9-20 are NOT in the original, as the early manuscripts show. Whoever ADDED to God's inspired word could have had baptism of the Holy Spirit in mind. We do not know. The key here is that those HAVE NOT BELIEVED will be condemned.

And there are no verses that say that one who believes but isn't baptizes will be condemned.

Well, those who are hydrophobic, for one.

Deuteronomy 30:6

That would be funny if not so serious...to the unbaptized.

I'm aware that receiving the Holy Spirit is not necessarily the same thing as being filled with the Holy Spirit or receiving power from the Holy Spirit. The Bible doesn't clearly say one is the Holy Spirit baptism and the other isn't, leaving it open to interpretation. Your interpretation is plausible, but not clear.

Now let's quickly look at Acts 8 and Acts 19 where the Holy Ghost didn't come upon people when they believed in Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost came upon them with the laying on of hands from an apostle such as Peter, John, or Paul.

Believed and baptized, but no Holy Spirit until the laying on of Hands.
Acts 8:12-17 KJV
12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Believed and baptized, but no Holy Spirit until the laying on of Hands.
Acts 19:1-7 KJV
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve.

Why did they not get the Holy Spirit when they believed and were baptized, but rather had to wait for the laying on of hands?

You can call it ''works salvation', a 'heresy' or a 'bicycle' if you like.

What I have actually been doing is showing what baptism is FOR, quoting the clear biblical statements that water baptism is "for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38) That happens to be God's word, not mine. And it's out of the mouth of two or three witnesses so every word is established. (Regardless what you say.)

I started at the very beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (See Mark 1:1) and at verse 4 the purpose of baptism is clearly stated. If a person starts outright rejecting the statements of the bible at verse 4, (before Jesus' ministry), it's not surprising when they continue rejecting it in Acts 2:38 (after Jesus' ministry). And of course Jesus made no change to the purpose of baptism during his earthly ministry. He simply incorporated its use without change (John 3:22-23, John 4:1-2) until after his death, when he again is commanding his disciples to continue water baptizing, just to begin doing it in His name...which they did (Acts 2:38, Acts 8:12&16, Acts 19:5, etc).

In the John 20:21-23 account he even VERY clearly states that if they don't remit the sins of the people (water baptism is for remission of sins) then the people's sins will remain upon them.


Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Have you received the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues, as did those in Acts 19:6 at the laying on of Paul's hands?

I realize that you don't put a great value on water baptism in your postings thus far. But I'm glad to see you put value on the actual receiving of the Holy Ghost rather than the CLAIM to have received the Holy Ghost (before anything happens) that some others teach.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

@p_rehbein
This posting isn't a harsh criticism (as it might first seem) but is rather pointing you to point out what could be a hypocrisy if overlooked.

You said "I hope folks know that water baptism is a "work." Why? Because it requires two people to complete."

If you are saying that the Holy Ghost is only given at the laying on of hands, that would make "receiving the Holy Spirit" a "work" ... "because it requires two people to complete"
Love in Jesus,
Kelby

@p_rehbein

oops. It may be that it wasn't you who was suggesting the holy ghost only comes at laying on of hands. I just reread some postings and realized you might have only been saying that "sanctification" comes at laying on of hands. My apologies if I attributed that doctrine to the wrong person.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Post #176 was well-said. It wouldn't hurt others to read it.

Yes, I know that's commenting on my own post but something has been standing out to me lately, and that is the danger of "What did we hear first... doctrine?... or what is written?".

I think I read Mark 1:1 before hearing a lot of doctrine about baptism even though I didn't really know what it meant. But later on, when God brought it to me to really pay attention to what is being said, I realize that the doctrines I'd later heard of "what baptism is for" were contradictory to what was clearly stated.
Then I thought "How can this be? How can baptism be "for the remission of sins" before Jesus even died for our sins?". Fortunately, by this time, I'd learned to take questions like that to the Lord and wait/tarry/abide/continue/stand until he answers. Again fortunately, he didn't make me wait long (maybe a few months) until someone was preaching something else I likewise didn't understand... and then God opened both at the same time. I love it when he does that.

My point? When we run into something in the Word that doesn't make sense to us, Don't do what the scribes and Pharisees did and come up with some answer that has no authority (See Matthew 7:28-29, Mark 1:22&27, Luke 4:36). Instead seek God until he opens the understanding to you, like the men of God in the bible learned to do (Moses in almost every situation; David likewise; Peter in Acts 10; Annanias in Acts 9, Philip in Acts 8, etc, etc) And it works for women, too. (Esther, Ruth, Mary Magdalene @ Jesus' grave, the woman with the issue of blood, etc.) Not all were seeking for revelation of scripture particularly, but all sought God in a way of not giving up without seeing God move... and all were rewarded accordingly. Those who were willing to give up usually don't have their names even mentioned. Which type of person do you want to be?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby