You need both water baptism and the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit.

I notice you skipped (omitted) the part where he explained the principle of persistence (rather than thinking everything comes immediately / instantly / without intense and/or sustained effort):

Luke 11-
9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead?
12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?
13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

When the Bible commands the believer to be filled with the Spirit, do you think that Luke 11:13 doesn't apply???

Do you think God's response to such a prayer would be: I'll get back to you sometime?

As much as one might reason that God would move IMMEDIATELY with the manifestation of filling someone with the Holy Ghost, we both know that is not how it happened in the book of Acts.

You are now suggesting that the doctrine of immediate filling was active while Jesus was still walking the Earth.

If your proposed doctrine was correct, Acts 8:12-16 could not have happened. It would be impossible for there to be a delay. That's why the doctrine of immediate infilling is false.

I was addressing the command to be FILLED with the Spirit, not being INDWELT with the Spirit.

Those are 2 separate things.


No, I am not. In fact, While Jesus was on earth, the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit was given to only a very few people; those who had specific ministries, like prophets, some kings, etc.

The INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit was given to all believers after Christ's resurrection.


You are confused between the FILLING and INDWELLING.

So change it to "the doctrine of indwelling" (instead of "infilling"). The problem still remains.

In Acts 8:15&16 they had not "received" the Holy Ghost.

That means they were neither infilled nor indwelt. Until verse 17.

Hello Kelby,

When Jesus Christ was baptized in water, the Holy Spirit also appeared in bodily form as a dove…. Jesus Christ was being Water Baptized and Holy Spirit Baptized- empowered to go directly into the wilderness and be tempted by Satan and overcome!

I believe being SAVED is only by the Blood and Body of Jesus Christ; however, being Born Again is by Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism.

Deuteronomy 30:6

The problem only remains if one uses the UNbiblical word "infilling". The Holy Spirit DWELLS IN the believer. Or, He indwells the believer.

So, it appears you don't see any difference between being "filled" vs being indwell then. Well, that's sad.

If they are the same, why did Paul COMMAND believers to be filled then? The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit INDWELLS the believer "when they believe", per Eph 1;13,14.

So, the problem rests solely on your understanding.


Let's not get mired down in very early church history. By the time Paul to the Galatians, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurred when a person believed. Gal 3:2,5.


You are very confused.

But again I thank you for being willing to discuss with me.

I know there's a difference between indwelling and infilling or rather "being filled with" vs. "having received" the Holy Spirit / Holy Ghost,

but didn't go into the differences because it was unnecessary to the point of discussion.

I'd wrongly assumed you thought they were more or less the same like most others seem to do, and I chose a wording that was imprecise.

My request was that you would adjust back to the wording you best prefer that refers to the moment when a person first receives the Holy Ghost.

It seems you were suggesting that before Jesus even went to the cross, he was offering the Holy Ghost INSTANTANEOUSLY to anyone who asked.

I was pointing out that effectively you were wrong in your interpretation of what he was saying. Otherwise the apostles would not have needed to wait for the Holy Ghost until the day of Pentecost if Jesus meant "any request for the Holy Ghost would be instantaneously granted".

The fact that Acts 8:12-17 happened... early church or not... means that your interpretation cannot be the correct interpretation.

@FreeGrace2
My apologies that the above quote sounded more like a dismissal rather than a welcoming of continued conversation.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Not just "anyone". The context is very clear; to His disciples. The ones who asked Him to teach them how to pray.

You have wrongly missed my point. Jesus HAD TO GIVE the Spirit to them PRECISELY because they NEVER asked for Him.

There were clearly differences in the very early church

We have no business to apply the variations of the very early church to now. Big mistake.

I'll think on that. I don't think it's far from how I actually see it now.

Ehhh... I was going to say that I had assumed the offer to ask extends to anyone because the offer to be his disciple extends to anyone. (Therefore a person could very quickly don discipleship and pass right on to asking him for the Holy Ghost. )

Then I thought:... If you particularly need to ask him how to pray before being accounted a disciple, the woman at the well in John 4 seems to break that mold because he was offering it to her before she had either asked him how to pray or had been declared his disciple.

But then again, I don't know of any woman specifically being listed as a disciple (perhaps I'm overlooking a reference).

That's an interesting viewpoint, and one I'd not heard before. I'll probably think on that one for a while. One implication is that it kind of eliminates a requirement to ask...(if you felt there was a requirement to ask).

Different from what? And what differences, specifically?

There were differences in the order of receiving the Holy Spirit and water baptism, for example.

I agree with all of the scriptures, even the scriptures that describe different types of baptisms, bringing the total number of baptisms to more than one. Maybe there are at least 4 different baptisms I can think of immediately. What is the "one baptism" that Ephesians 4:5,6 is talking about?

@Magenta ,
Thanks for your postings as well. I may have to ask more about the most recent ones, as to what you may have been answering with each, but I really appreciate your posting of Deuteronomy 30:6 regarding circumcision of the heart.

I have some understanding what circumcision of the heart means, and I appreciate some of the value. Specifically in comparison to what is going on with fleshly circumcision as God started to opening that purpose to me.

Verse 6 when read alone sounds like circumcision of the heart is a prerequisite for loving him with all the heart, etc.; Yet not specifically a prerequisite of belief. And my apologies if I seem overly critical about that wording. It's just that God has shown me to pay very close attention to wording.

When I read the verses leading up to Deut 30:6, it seems like the chapter starts with the people being in a state of being turned back (or away) from the Lord. And in verse 2 they start doing the thing that puts the repair process in motion. Which, according to verse 3, reverses God's wrath. Then verses 4, 5 & 6 seem like a detailing of the types of benefits they would be receiving from the actions of verse 2... circumcision of the heart being one of those benefits.

Is that along the lines of how you read it?

or a different question... "What do you think 'circumcision of the heart' means? I'd be willing to share what God's shown me so far if you want to know/ask.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

“And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:8

to impute sin there needs to be two or three witnesses agreeing, to remit sin there are also three witnesses in agreement with one baptism

the water witnesses of remission of sins

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it agrees with the blood of remission

“for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the third witness is the spirit Or word of Jesus Christ that tells us we’re forgiven

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the spirit water and blood are the one baptism like three witnesses agreeing that our sins are remitted one baptism is our instruction we baptize with water , Jesus baptized believers with the Holy Spirit. Here’s a good example of how they are one

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39, 41‬ ‭KJV‬‬


when it says there’s one baptism it’s saying there’s one baptism we’ve been instructed to partake of ( water ) we do this because we’ve heard the word and heard about Jesus shedding his blood for remission .

the church has only one baptism water Jesus is who baptized with the spirit from heaven and we only know these things because it’s in the gospel

there is one baptism it’s johns baptism of remission of sins , because we believe the blood was shed for remission of sins and have believed the word telling us about remission of sins the three witnesses agree in one about remission of sins

much like God is one but we hear about three different manifestations of him baptism is one and we hear about different aspects of it. Water , blood and spirit agree on one baptism

we hear the gospel , believe and then get baptized based on our new belief that’s salvation by faith

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

Baptisms value is that God said get baptized for remission of sins believing Jesus does for your sins and I will remit your sins when we hear that and act upon our belief it is faith.