You need both water baptism and the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit.
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I'm very serious.
Did you see where I ranked your "superior baptism" at no higher than 3?
It's really sad that a believer would have to ask such a question.
Jesus' baptism is superior because He was proving that He was directly in God's Will for Him, and He was identifiying with that Will. That makes EVERYTHING possible regarding Christianity. If you don't think that is superior to every other baptism, you have a serious misunderstanding about Christianity.
#2 on the list would be the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is WHEN the Holy Spirit INDWELLS the believer at the moment of saving faith, and places the believer into UNION WITH CHRIST. Without Jesus' baptism, this baptism cannot occur.
Without the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the believer's baptism (water) would be completely irrelevant and worthless.
A SYMBOL requires the reality. The reality is the the baptism of the Holy Spirit, putting the believer IN UNION with Christ. That's the ONLY WAY water baptism has any meaning at all.
Glad you asked.
Did you see where I ranked your "superior baptism" at no higher than 3?
It's really sad that a believer would have to ask such a question.
Jesus' baptism is superior because He was proving that He was directly in God's Will for Him, and He was identifiying with that Will. That makes EVERYTHING possible regarding Christianity. If you don't think that is superior to every other baptism, you have a serious misunderstanding about Christianity.
#2 on the list would be the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is WHEN the Holy Spirit INDWELLS the believer at the moment of saving faith, and places the believer into UNION WITH CHRIST. Without Jesus' baptism, this baptism cannot occur.
Without the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the believer's baptism (water) would be completely irrelevant and worthless.
A SYMBOL requires the reality. The reality is the the baptism of the Holy Spirit, putting the believer IN UNION with Christ. That's the ONLY WAY water baptism has any meaning at all.
Glad you asked.
yeah the only thing that has changed from this
“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
Mark 1:4 KJV
is the name of Jesus is now revealed. See when John baptized Jesus it was because he was about to preach the gospel of the kingdom as scriotire foretold all along he was going to preach and speak the new covenant after johns ministry. When hohn came first Jesus hadn’t yet been declared johns ministry was about Jesus but his name wasn’t known. The act of baptizing in water is the same John actually preached of Jesus but his name wasn’t yet known until he was baptized and started preaching the gospel even Jesus disciples , baptized disciples in Jesus name after John sent his disciples to Jesus
“When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)”
John 4:1-2 KJV
Jesus wasn’t a Baptist , but his disciples like John before baptized in Jesus name John just hadn’t known his name when he began because that’s how it was written.
The only change is in jesus name has now been made known that was the issue there in your wuote they got baptized but didn’t hear John preaching about Jesus and it had been before Jesus was baptized.
“Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; and looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.”
John 1:35-
those who hears John preaching heard what Paul had explained to them
“And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”
Acts 19:3-5 KJV
they hadn’t heard Jesus preaching about the spirit of kingdom they just got baptized by John they hadn’t heard about the Holy Ghost
“he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.”
Acts 19:2 KJV
if you haven’t heard something you can’t believe it was the issue they got baptized but hadn’t heard the gospel yet about receiving the Holy Ghost from Jesus thats what John was rakkkng about
“I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.”
Mark 1:8
John was takkkng about this day
“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
Acts 2:33, 36-38 KJV
You still get baptized in water for remission and you still get the Holy Spirit from Jesus can even Work the other way receive the spirit first and then get baptized in water. Like this
“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
Acts 10:44-45, 47-48
the water never goes away it’s always a witness of the same thing remission of our sins through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. We receive the Holy Ghost that’s what the reference bekng baptized with the Holy Ghost is Jesus is the only one who can give the Holy Ghost when we hear the gospel and believe
“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
Mark 1:4 KJV
“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
Mark 1:4 KJV
is the name of Jesus is now revealed. See when John baptized Jesus it was because he was about to preach the gospel of the kingdom as scriotire foretold all along he was going to preach and speak the new covenant after johns ministry. When hohn came first Jesus hadn’t yet been declared johns ministry was about Jesus but his name wasn’t known. The act of baptizing in water is the same John actually preached of Jesus but his name wasn’t yet known until he was baptized and started preaching the gospel even Jesus disciples , baptized disciples in Jesus name after John sent his disciples to Jesus
“When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)”
John 4:1-2 KJV
Jesus wasn’t a Baptist , but his disciples like John before baptized in Jesus name John just hadn’t known his name when he began because that’s how it was written.
The only change is in jesus name has now been made known that was the issue there in your wuote they got baptized but didn’t hear John preaching about Jesus and it had been before Jesus was baptized.
“Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; and looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.”
John 1:35-
those who hears John preaching heard what Paul had explained to them
“And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”
Acts 19:3-5 KJV
they hadn’t heard Jesus preaching about the spirit of kingdom they just got baptized by John they hadn’t heard about the Holy Ghost
“he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.”
Acts 19:2 KJV
if you haven’t heard something you can’t believe it was the issue they got baptized but hadn’t heard the gospel yet about receiving the Holy Ghost from Jesus thats what John was rakkkng about
“I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.”
Mark 1:8
John was takkkng about this day
“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
Acts 2:33, 36-38 KJV
You still get baptized in water for remission and you still get the Holy Spirit from Jesus can even Work the other way receive the spirit first and then get baptized in water. Like this
“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
Acts 10:44-45, 47-48
the water never goes away it’s always a witness of the same thing remission of our sins through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. We receive the Holy Ghost that’s what the reference bekng baptized with the Holy Ghost is Jesus is the only one who can give the Holy Ghost when we hear the gospel and believe
“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
Mark 1:4 KJV
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No you have completely misrepresented what I was saying which seems to be one of your typical tactics. Creating a narrative that makes your opponents appear of incoherent and slandering your opposition are how you seem to maintain the appearance of validity. The only problem is it doesn't last for long until you're called out again, and again, and again.
If you'll go back and read post #220 you'll see this by me:
"Yes but, to add to that, the baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus" is superior to all other baptisms. I think the baptism of Jesus is the one we need to obey. "
If you'll go back and read post #220 you'll see this by me:
"Yes but, to add to that, the baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus" is superior to all other baptisms. I think the baptism of Jesus is the one we need to obey. "
When you say "Jesus baptism" or "Jesus' baptism" (with the apostrophe after his name) you are meaning water baptism in Jesus name.
But it seems Freegrace has been using the other meaning of the idea of Jesus' baptism (Jesus getting baptized by John). It's not a wrong definition or application of meaning; it's just a more rare usage and needs to be clarified if the intent is to convey information to those who are using the more popular definition.
That phenomenon of using "other" definitions is how Satan has been deceiving huge numbers of Bible believers with the word "Saved".
But that's a longer story.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
But it seems Freegrace has been using the other meaning of the idea of Jesus' baptism (Jesus getting baptized by John). It's not a wrong definition or application of meaning; it's just a more rare usage and needs to be clarified if the intent is to convey information to those who are using the more popular definition.
That phenomenon of using "other" definitions is how Satan has been deceiving huge numbers of Bible believers with the word "Saved".
But that's a longer story.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Ah. I understand what you were saying.
And I'm going to answer... not about the variations themselves, but about HOW a person wants to view those variations... because that is a major fork in the road. God has taught me to watch for those forks in the road.
We are in agreement that the Bible documents variations in the order that things happen . For example:
If not, I'm sure you'll say so but I'll continue as if I'm "close enough" for agreement so I can describe the "fork" (a place of divergence).
The choice that needs to be made is "How should I view these variations?... As examples of what is to be expected in the new situation?... Or as something that is not applicable to what happens now but needed to be recorded to show the steps that were taken as we proceeded from point A (what was) to Point B (what is)?".
Oops, gotta go for now but will continue once I can review your opinion so far.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
And I'm going to answer... not about the variations themselves, but about HOW a person wants to view those variations... because that is a major fork in the road. God has taught me to watch for those forks in the road.
We are in agreement that the Bible documents variations in the order that things happen . For example:
- Acts 8:12-17 shows belief THEN baptism THEN receiving the Holy Ghost.
- Acts 10:44-48 shows belief THEN receiving the Holy Ghost THEN water baptism.
If not, I'm sure you'll say so but I'll continue as if I'm "close enough" for agreement so I can describe the "fork" (a place of divergence).
The choice that needs to be made is "How should I view these variations?... As examples of what is to be expected in the new situation?... Or as something that is not applicable to what happens now but needed to be recorded to show the steps that were taken as we proceeded from point A (what was) to Point B (what is)?".
Oops, gotta go for now but will continue once I can review your opinion so far.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Colossians 2:11
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
He was explaining that the soul has a certain amount of need for things like entertainment, food, even sex (if we want to continue as a species). That is natural, normal, and not sinful. We have a natural need for that part, and we ought to keep that part. But often, when a desire is TOO strong (un-naturally strong), THAT is when and where a spirit is involved. And spirits are subject to the believer. So, once we realize it, we can take authority over that spirit (through Jesus) and cast it away. Then we're only left with the reasonable, non-sinful, manageable desire that is natural and appropriate to the soul. Thereby separating (dividing assunder) soul and spirit by the word of God...and gaining freedom from (and power over) sin.
I thought that was brilliant and a clear explanation of something I'd struggled to understand. I hope you enjoyed it likewise.
So what's that got to do with circumcision (especially circumcision of the heart)? Well, it's the idea of ONLY removing the part that is unnecessary, while keeping the part(s) (and/or amounts) that are good and beneficial.
That does take God (to do it without injuring the person). And each time or area it is done, it removes yet another hindrance to seeing things clearly and correctly... Which of course affects our ability to BELIEVE those things correctly.
Let me know if that makes sense and if it helps express the point you were trying to make.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
My only "tactic" is to respond to what your posts communicate. If I misrepresented anything in your post, that's on your own skills.
I am sorry to see how LOW you have gone in blatant lying. Where have I "slandered" you? Quote the statement(s) and post #'s please.
Or apologize. Your pick.
Now you're a comedian. Please show me where I've been "called out" you know, again and again and again. I DARE you to.
What does this show? Only that you DO believe that water baptism is superior to ALL OTHER BAPTISMS.
And THAT is exactly what I was addressing. You need to stop lying.
And why haven't you yet addressed my point about PROXY baptisms? Do you think they are legit or not?
I am sorry to see how LOW you have gone in blatant lying. Where have I "slandered" you? Quote the statement(s) and post #'s please.
Or apologize. Your pick.
Now you're a comedian. Please show me where I've been "called out" you know, again and again and again. I DARE you to.
What does this show? Only that you DO believe that water baptism is superior to ALL OTHER BAPTISMS.
And THAT is exactly what I was addressing. You need to stop lying.
And why haven't you yet addressed my point about PROXY baptisms? Do you think they are legit or not?
I don’t owe you any deference. You’re lucky I’m even replying to you again. You know you are a dishonest debator. I don’t need to prove that to you because your conscience bears witness of this fact to you.
Water baptism is ordained by God Himself so I am not following your line of thinking that there is something inferior about it. Compared to what…Holy Spirit baptism? Jesus performs the Holy Spirit baptism and it’s part of being born again for the salvation of the soul. Water baptism is for the salvation of the glorified resurrected body.
“You must be born of water and Spirit.” That’s water baptism and Spirit baptism and they go together according to John 3.
You’re just going to reject the gospel again so I don’t see the point of telling you all this repeatedly, but maybe it’ll stick this time.
You’ve been shown all of these things before and you aren’t entitled to continue arguing with me. Or rather you can say what you want, but you are just here to argue and I don’t have to keep replying.
What’s more is I completely reject your false doctrines so don’t think you’re making any progress to changing my mind.
Proxy baptisms are invalid.
Water baptism is ordained by God Himself so I am not following your line of thinking that there is something inferior about it. Compared to what…Holy Spirit baptism? Jesus performs the Holy Spirit baptism and it’s part of being born again for the salvation of the soul. Water baptism is for the salvation of the glorified resurrected body.
“You must be born of water and Spirit.” That’s water baptism and Spirit baptism and they go together according to John 3.
You’re just going to reject the gospel again so I don’t see the point of telling you all this repeatedly, but maybe it’ll stick this time.
You’ve been shown all of these things before and you aren’t entitled to continue arguing with me. Or rather you can say what you want, but you are just here to argue and I don’t have to keep replying.
What’s more is I completely reject your false doctrines so don’t think you’re making any progress to changing my mind.
Proxy baptisms are invalid.
So the fork in the road is:
I consider them examples.
It seems you consider them exceptions. <-- is that correct?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
A) Do we take those variations as examples of the current reality?
-OR-
B) Do we take those variations as exceptions to the current reality? (That only occurred during a brief time of history)
I consider them examples.
It seems you consider them exceptions. <-- is that correct?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
FreeGrace2 said:
My only "tactic" is to respond to what your posts communicate. If I misrepresented anything in your post, that's on your own skills.
I am sorry to see how LOW you have gone in blatant lying. Where have I "slandered" you? Quote the statement(s) and post #'s please.
Or apologize. Your pick.
Now you're a comedian. Please show me where I've been "called out" you know, again and again and again. I DARE you to.
Please read my posts before going off half cocked. I didn't ask for "deference", for pete's sake. I gave you a choice. You have falsely claimed that I slandered you, and asked that you PROVE your claim or apologize.
Oh stop it already. There is no "luck" here. I'm defending Scripture and your BAD theology.
There you go again with your false charges. What's with you anyway?? Now you have another FALSE claim to prove.
You, you DO need to prove your stupid claims. If I slandered you, there is proof on this thread. So either quote it and cite the post # for ALL to SEE, or apologize. Or just keep being dishonest yourself.
Yes, water baptism has been ordained by God. As a Christian ordinance, which is a ritual. Period. You've been shown the verses but you don't believe them, or you just keep clinging to your misunderstanding of them.
You STILL have no evidence of such teaching. 1 Cor 15:29 is about PROXY baptism anyway. What's the point of a PROXY anything?
The very context REFUTES your confusion. Nic misunderstood what Jesus meant in v.3 about being "born again". Ol' Nic thought Jesus was referring to a second physical birth. So Jesus corrected him in v.5 with "you must be born of water and Spirit". iow, Jesus meant being born spiritually IN ADDITION to being born physically. The context proves this.
The context doesn't even mention water baptism.
This is beyond stupid. Stop it. Paul was very clear about what he preached as the gospel.
Read 1 Cor 15:1-11. Where do you see anything about being baptized in water? You don't.
What arrogance!!! I am free to engage with ANYONE who posts here. Who are you to claim that I'm not?
That is correct. You are free to ignore. But I will refute your false doctrine EVERY TIME you post it.
This isn't about you, my friend. It's about the TRUTH. There are many people who just read these threads to see what people believe. Or to try to learn something. Or to resolve these kind of doctrinal debates.
My focus is on the TRUTH. What people (including you) think about it is between them and the Lord. All I can do is defend the TRUTH from Scripture.
Then why in the world is 1 Cor 15:29 so important to you??? Doesn't make any sense. The verse is only about proxy baptism anyway.
So, you see, for those who just read these threads and posts, I present reality and challenge your nonsense.
And I let the chips fall where they may.
Again, this isn't about you. It's about TRUTH vs false doctrine.
My only "tactic" is to respond to what your posts communicate. If I misrepresented anything in your post, that's on your own skills.
I am sorry to see how LOW you have gone in blatant lying. Where have I "slandered" you? Quote the statement(s) and post #'s please.
Or apologize. Your pick.
Now you're a comedian. Please show me where I've been "called out" you know, again and again and again. I DARE you to.
Please read my posts before going off half cocked. I didn't ask for "deference", for pete's sake. I gave you a choice. You have falsely claimed that I slandered you, and asked that you PROVE your claim or apologize.
Oh stop it already. There is no "luck" here. I'm defending Scripture and your BAD theology.
There you go again with your false charges. What's with you anyway?? Now you have another FALSE claim to prove.
You, you DO need to prove your stupid claims. If I slandered you, there is proof on this thread. So either quote it and cite the post # for ALL to SEE, or apologize. Or just keep being dishonest yourself.
Yes, water baptism has been ordained by God. As a Christian ordinance, which is a ritual. Period. You've been shown the verses but you don't believe them, or you just keep clinging to your misunderstanding of them.
You STILL have no evidence of such teaching. 1 Cor 15:29 is about PROXY baptism anyway. What's the point of a PROXY anything?
The very context REFUTES your confusion. Nic misunderstood what Jesus meant in v.3 about being "born again". Ol' Nic thought Jesus was referring to a second physical birth. So Jesus corrected him in v.5 with "you must be born of water and Spirit". iow, Jesus meant being born spiritually IN ADDITION to being born physically. The context proves this.
The context doesn't even mention water baptism.
This is beyond stupid. Stop it. Paul was very clear about what he preached as the gospel.
Read 1 Cor 15:1-11. Where do you see anything about being baptized in water? You don't.
What arrogance!!! I am free to engage with ANYONE who posts here. Who are you to claim that I'm not?
That is correct. You are free to ignore. But I will refute your false doctrine EVERY TIME you post it.
This isn't about you, my friend. It's about the TRUTH. There are many people who just read these threads to see what people believe. Or to try to learn something. Or to resolve these kind of doctrinal debates.
My focus is on the TRUTH. What people (including you) think about it is between them and the Lord. All I can do is defend the TRUTH from Scripture.
Then why in the world is 1 Cor 15:29 so important to you??? Doesn't make any sense. The verse is only about proxy baptism anyway.
So, you see, for those who just read these threads and posts, I present reality and challenge your nonsense.
And I let the chips fall where they may.
Again, this isn't about you. It's about TRUTH vs false doctrine.
FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, those are the variations that the Bible has revealed.
Great question!
By considering the whol council of God, we can discern what is an example of a current reality and what is now an exception to current reality.
I use Gal 3:2,5 as guiding my views of the very early church as exceptions to current reality.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
First, there is no mention of water baptism. Second, by the time Paul wrote to the Galatian believers, it was at about 16-22 years after the resurrection of Christ. So Galatians isn't about the "very early church", like we read in Acts.
Yes, those are the variations that the Bible has revealed.
Great question!
By considering the whol council of God, we can discern what is an example of a current reality and what is now an exception to current reality.
I use Gal 3:2,5 as guiding my views of the very early church as exceptions to current reality.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
First, there is no mention of water baptism. Second, by the time Paul wrote to the Galatian believers, it was at about 16-22 years after the resurrection of Christ. So Galatians isn't about the "very early church", like we read in Acts.
Hello @KelbyofGod 
Thank you so much for praying for me! God is so good! His Body is connected and supplies what each member has need of.
When you prayed, I was right in the middle of closing on a new house and moving and feeling sick all at the same time - it's been very hectic and very exciting! LOL!
I'm totally well and slowly moving in - should be completely finished by the end of May. Yay!!
You already have a wonderful kind demeanor - wouldn't change a thing! Don't let any of those "judgmental condemning thoughts" confuse you about yourself! You're WONDERFUL!! You be Kelby and I'll be me!
Thank you so much for praying for me! God is so good! His Body is connected and supplies what each member has need of.
When you prayed, I was right in the middle of closing on a new house and moving and feeling sick all at the same time - it's been very hectic and very exciting! LOL!
I'm totally well and slowly moving in - should be completely finished by the end of May. Yay!!
You already have a wonderful kind demeanor - wouldn't change a thing!
Don't let any of those "judgmental condemning thoughts" confuse you about yourself! You're WONDERFUL!! You be Kelby and I'll be me! No scripture just a bunch of hot air and bluster from you which seems to be your typical impotent response. Didn’t even even read the whole thing, but skimmed through it. You’re lost and confused and seem to want to blame me for it.
Go tell someone who cares, as far as I am concerned this is a church split and I’m cleaving off from your church fast and hard.
Go tell someone who cares, as far as I am concerned this is a church split and I’m cleaving off from your church fast and hard.