Institutionalizion of the Church

I hate Catholicism because it's a false form of Christianity that has done untold evil in the world. If it would stop calling itself Christian that would be one thing; but it pretends to be Christian when its anything but. It's not Catholicism per se I hate but all forms of demonic doctrines. But Catholicism is probably the worst of them all.

I'm not a Protestant because Protestants are those who broke away from the Catholic church in protest. I was never involved with the Catholic church to begin with so how can I be a Protestant? I'm a believer in Christ Jesus; I belong to the Way, a Christian.

I'm sure this won't satisfy you and you'll insist on a debate but there will be none coming on my part.

An interesting study in church history is the 'non-protestant baptists'

Your missing the point altogether.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Any church organization that was given the power over other countries and churches. Which the Catholic church was able to exert. Would be just as corrupt as the Catholic church, perhaps even worse.

The Catholic church is fundamentally no different to any other church, they were just drunk on their immense power. If you think that your church could manage that power and control, that the Catholic church had gained. Then you have misunderstood that the Catholic church is a powerful lesson for every Christian church today.

God help us all.

Learn to love your enemies with an unconditional, divine love.

That's interesting. From what I found I agree with a lot of what they stand for. One source said they don't believe at all in a "universal church." I'm not sure I agree though. I believe there is a universal body of believers but not necessarily organized into an institutionalized structure.

But good stuff.

Yea... the denial of a universal church is saying the universal entity is the Family of God, where the body of Christ is a localised entity.

I believe all believers will be one church.. but that's 'yet future '.. we aren't assembled as one in heaven yet .
Entrance to family thru belief in Jesus. Entrance to the body of Christ thru being accepted into a bible believing church and baptized by full immersion.

Anyway.. I consider myself a non protestant Baptist although there is the fact that the baptists did help the reformers at some points and were protesters, but the main thing is they didnt 'come out of' the reformation or the catholic denominations.

Good analysis.

The Bible does not acknowledge man made denominations.

Just curious...what distinguishes ......a baptist and a non protestant baptist?

The key thing is non-protestant baptists have no known human founder, whereas baptists from the reformation would be connected to being started by a 1500s or 1600s movement for example.

There may have also been baptist groups that were unrecognised generally before the baptist confession statements of the 1500 and 1600s. So they would have already been churches.. but then officially recognised with the confessions such as the 1600s London baptist confession.

wattie, I'm curious. If you have no human founder why do you call yourselves Baptist? It seems to me you're on the right track by not affiliating yourselves with Protestants so why be associated with a denomination? Why not just be non-denominational or simply no label at all?

I'm not looking to criticize, just curious about the reasoning behind it.

Hi Aaron56, glad to have read another one of your threads sir. They always get me rolling scripture after scripture in my thoughts. I was reminded that Jesus wept over Jerusalem, and if I may say, quite the institution there as well. Jesus clearly rebuked them in Matthew 23. The verse that rings out the most to me though, is this one.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

man's failure would be the whole point in leading him to only seeking God. Proverbs 3:5-6, Isaiah 28:13, Isaiah 64:7, Matthew 6:33, James 4:9-10, Philippians 1:15-18 and so many other scriptures pointing it out

thanks again

You are correct.
There is a universal group of Christians from all parts of society. There are many today that attend less than their desire church just to have a place to worship lour Lord and Savior. So long as they.......do not support that environment.......it is a worship source.

You have been shown the factual historical evidence before. Why do you keep denying it?

Oh, wait. That is obviously a rhetorical question. I know why: you must defend the RCC.

However, for those who are honestly interested in the truth of
the matter, here is an extremely detailed and informative page.

Number of Protestants Killed By Catholic Pope (alphanewsdaily.com) <= link

n name would not be req11uired.aqattie, post: 4858519, member: 10554"]The key thing is non-protestant baptists have no known human founder, whereas baptists from the reformation would be connected to being started by a 1500s or 1600s movement for example.

There may have also been baptist groups that were unrecognised generally before the baptist confession statements of the 1500 and 1600s. So they would have already been churches.. but then officially recognised with the confessions such as the 1600s London baptist confession.[/QUOTE]

I think that represents a very thin line between the two ......which is invisible.
Adopting the baptist word as part of the reference name is tantamount to the making of twins.

True Christian Church or

True followers of Christ Church...etc,

would be a clear separate choice if the need to ride the back of a well known group was not a prime focus.

Baptist and their belief that baptism is not required would push me as far away as possible.

Baptist has a rich, long running tradition and their are distinctive baptistic teachings, so I am happy to align myself to the name. The main thing it really means is baptism of believers only, by full immersion.

In saying this I could easily ditch the baptist name if it didn't mean adherance to the bible's teachings. Strickly speaking, I really am non-denominational in the sense that there is no 'mother church' ...no denominational church over the church I go to. It is completely independent of any other church.

seems the first “ state sanctioned “ form of Christianity

I think that represents a very thin line between the two ......which is invisible.
Adopting the baptist word as part of the reference name is tantamount to the making of twins.

True Christian Church or

True followers of Christ Church...etc,

would be a clear separate choice if the need to ride the back of a well known group was not a prime focus.

Baptist and their belief that baptism is not required would push me as far away as possible.[/QUOTE]

Baptism not required?

Not required as part of receiving eternal salvation.. yes.

Not required to join a baptist church? No. Baptists check a person's salvation testimony and re-baptise by full immersion before membership to a church is allowed.

Why is this so.. check the letter of recommendation in Acts and the disciples of apollos and the process they went through.

Baptism not required?

Not required as part of receiving eternal salvation.. yes.

Not required to join a baptist church? No. Baptists check a person's salvation testimony and re-baptise by full immersion before membership to a church is allowed.

Why is this so.. check the letter of recommendation in Acts and the disciples of apollos and the process they went through.[/QUOTE]
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Wow...check scripture re.... baptism;


Baptism is Required.

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Acts 8
:12-18:
But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 19:4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”

John 3; 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

.......If you were baptized for some reason other than for forgiveness of sins in order to be saved then you do not have salvation and you are still lost. Who are you going to follow: God or man? As our Lord warns us in Matthew 15:14, "And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a ditch." Don't allow someone, who has added to and taken away from God's word, to lead you. Open your eyes and read God's word for yourself. Those who have added to and taken away from God's word will be lost. If you continue to follow them, then you too will be lost.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bible).

Baptists and Ana-Baptists were opposed for their beliefs by the Reformers, and were persecuted and killed as a result. Therefore it is really an anomaly to read about "Reformed Baptists". But the sad truth is that the seduction of Calvinism took many Baptists captive even in the 17th century, and this was evident in what happened to the Southern Baptists not too long ago.

=========================================================

Wow...check scripture re.... baptism;


Baptism is Required.

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Acts 8
:12-18:
But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 19:4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”

John 3; 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

.......If you were baptized for some reason other than for forgiveness of sins in order to be saved then you do not have salvation and you are still lost. Who are you going to follow: God or man? As our Lord warns us in Matthew 15:14, "And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a ditch." Don't allow someone, who has added to and taken away from God's word, to lead you. Open your eyes and read God's word for yourself. Those who have added to and taken away from God's word will be lost. If you continue to follow them, then you too will be lost.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bible).[/QUOTE]

Weeeell.. I am not gonna argue over this. There has been enough threads that refute water baptism for salvation.

Yeah, I have a book on the History of the Baptists by John.T.Christian that goes into detail about this. Also the book My Church by J.M. Moody.

It is a funny thing how so many baptists took on Calvinism.. despite their history of being seperate from the Reformers. It also reminds me of how the origins of alot of the signs and wonders movements came from people standing up in churches like the baptistic ones and saying they can speak in tongues etc.

Guess if you don't know the biblical base for what you believe but follow what someone tells you, then you can be pulled off in any direction.