Covenants with Nations

It's surprising, from an historical pov, that so many on these forums and elsewhere utterly reject any notion of God making covenants with nations today. Clearly, God made a covenant with the nation Israel during the period of the Mosaic Law. That covenant failed, even as the original promise God made to Abraham persisted in connection with Israel.

The importance of this should not be underappreciated. If God made covenants with nations, and not just with individuals, then He still does so today--God does not change. I believe God made many covenants with entire nations in the NT period--they were called "Christian nations." Both king and people embraced the Christian religion, which is tantamount to making a covenant with God on a national basis.

Many complain about this, stating that salvation is an individual thing, and should not be confused with national covenants, when nations obviously contain mixed elements, both believers and unbelievers, both the righteous and the wicked. Why would God make covenants with entire nations since many within that nation do not warrant salvation?

The answer to this is important. God is interested in both individual salvation and social justice. He wanted the social environment to be amenable to righteous living, so that people within the society are not abused, Christian or not, righteous or not.

There is, however, a price to be paid for God making covenants with entire nations, as I just implied--the wicked have to be put up with for some time. Freedom to make choices, both good and bad, must be tolerated. And as a Christian nation gradually dilutes and compromises, the wicked amass until the Christian minority is isolated and abused.

Then it is that due to the increase of lawlessness in a fallen society many people suffer deception and ignorance, needing deliverance and an outreach to bring them back into the knowledge of God. Allowing nations to determine their destiny obviously impacts individuals who suffer abuses and do not automatically lose their salvation when the nation falls--they have simply fallen into ignorance.

What I'm really doing is telling the tale of Israel. Why have they seem to have been abandoned by God for so long? It is because God makes covenants with nations. And nations determine their own destiny with respect to God's covenant with them, ultimately capitulating to the lowest common denominator.

Then it is that the righteous minority is suppressed and the ignorant majority held back from knowing the way back to reconciliation with God. The Gospel does not easily penetrate a nation in which the righteous have their testimony suppressed! When a nation is allowed to choose to go the wrong way, darkness descends upon the entire people, rendering many ignorant concerning the means to reconcile with God.

At some point it requires judgment upon that nation and upon that people to open back up the message of salvation. And due to the fact God does make covenants with nations, international judgment is what must happen to restore the knowledge of God to people who have been kept in darkness by an ungodly majority in each nation.

Did Jesus not come to "fulfill" the Law? That being the Law of the First Covenant? I'm not so sure it "failed," rather than the majority of Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah. God fulfilled the "promise" of the 1st Covenant with the birth, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus.

As well, there are still millions of Jews who continue to live under the 1st Covenant, and having chose to live under the "Law," they will be judged by the Law of the 1st Covenant. IMO, it is still ongoing for them.


(just saying)

if we're discussing the Old Testament we know how this happened.

Tower of Babel
God scatters humanity
Deuteronomy 32:8-9 explains how the Nations were divided among God Himself and the Sons of God.

8 When Elyon gave nations their heritage, when He separated the sons of man, He set boundaries for the people by the number of the Sons of God.
9 But ADONAI’S portion is His people— Jacob is the share of His inheritance.

then because of the Death-Burial-Resurrection of Jesus we have All Nations once again reunited under Christ.

Matthew 28:18 And Yeshua came up to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me."

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

“That covenant failed,”

no brother that covenant succeeded in its purpose to precede Christ it has a different purpose forst mankknd had to be made known that they were sinners and guilty before God that’s it’s purpose

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭

see it’s a plan and has a few steps. Before man can actually repent we have to have our sins made known To us we have to know “ I’m sinning “ before we can ever repent the law defines sin d points it out to the Hester who is honest and looks at themself according to the words in the law

this had to happen before you can have remission of sins that’s where the gospel comes in . The old covenant didn’t fail the people showed themselves to be inadequate and sinners without hope by the law it proves every human guilty of sin me this means every person has to accept Jesus whomis the only source of remission of sins

step one after the fall is to make mankind know sin and become aware of righteousness and it’s contrast to sin . Once we know “I’m a sinner “ we can then come to repentance and be saved having our sins remitted in Christ and washed away with the law that was there tomorove us guilty

now we have Jesus proving us innocent by his own flesh and blood substitutes for ours in death and in resurrection the overcoming of sin and death

in the old because it’s purpose was to make men guilty ot was against sinners it could damned then to death This was it’s purpose

“Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:26‬ ‭

the law is there to point out our sins and teach us the result of death. It’s a wot eas against everything g we’ve ever done wrong claiming before God our guilt in. Breaking the law

Christ removed this witness against us at Gods right hand and now he is there not witnessing against us but interceding and advocating for us with God

as the law was a witness against us at the sonde of Gods mercy seat in the Old Testament because it was meant to make us guilty so the New Testament now is this

Instead of that book that is there to witness our sins to God and make us guilty we now in Christ have this

“Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the witness against us the law is removed by Christ fulfilling it

The law says your a sinner and your guilty and condemned to death the gospel declares this from that removing the witness against us the book of ordinance of Moses law

“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is no longer present with God witnessing our sins against us

Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:26‬ ‭

instead we have this situation

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the law makes sin known and imputes it on everyone and Christ offers repentance and remission of those imported sins by the law.


The gospel is the covenant for all mankind all nations of men That’s why Jesus sent it to be preached in all nations it’s Gods covenant with man

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:8-9, 26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

good read I just wanted to say the old covenant served it’s purpose and led the world to a point that No one can belong to God without accepting the gospel because the law made us all sinners and condemned us all so the only saving grace is the gospel for any nationality of men

the law had to reveal mans sin in order for Jesus to purge it from us and save us from it it’s all a cohesive plan like a house you have to at the first dig a hole and set a foundation then backfill this had to occur before you can start building walls and roofs and floors and ceilings

in Gods plan the old is like the foundation and the new is the eternal house we live in built by the lord but the foundation even though we don’t look at it and see it was absolutely necassary for the house to stand up

the law and prophets bekng fulfilled has to happen or the gospel couldn’t have

And this Covenant was a symbolic foreshadowing of God's Covenant with the Church. All that matters today, whether you be Jew, Greek, Roman, or Scythian, is that you are a citizen of the Church. Judaism will profit nothing until one turns to Jesus and acknowledges His Atonement. Many Judaisers will miss the Rapture, but turn to Jesus in the time of Jacob's Trouble.

Colossians 3:11

“Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.”


Romans 10:12

“For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”

With respect, your premise is flawed in several ways.

Firstly, there is one nation with which God made a covenant; God did not make "covenants" (plural) with "nations" (plural).

Secondly, God's nature does not change, but His methods do change. We can see this in the consequences resulting from various sins: some were stoned, some burned with fire, some bitten by snakes, some swallowed by the earth, some killed by enemy armies, some killed by plague, and some killed by an angel or even directly by God Himself. If your premise were sound, God would kill sinners the same way every time.

Thirdly, just because God did something in the past does not mean He will do the same thing today or in the future. He is not obligated to repeat Himself.

Embracing Christianity is accepting God's covenant in Christ, not making a covenant with God. Though God will hold humans to covenants they make with each other or with Him, He holds Himself only to the covenants that He initiates.

As your starting premise is flawed, every point based on that premise is also flawed. Your question is answered in Genesis 18/19 and in the parable of the weeds (Matthew 13:24-30).

Agreed.

Yes, thanks for responding. I think I see where you're coming from, though I have a different interpretation. Fulfillment of the Law is not a continuation of the Law. And when Paul said Jews would be judged by the Law he was rhetorically speaking of the time Jews lived under the Law, not of the NT era where Jews today continue to practice the Law.

At any rate, the Law is not really being practiced anymore, as far as God is concerned. It was completed in the death of Christ, whose redemption superseded the redemptive practices of the Law. All the works under the Law were of faith, but did not provide eternal life. Only Christ's death could do that, and so completed the faith of those who practice the Law in the OT period.

Those Jews who practice the Law today practice a different version of the Law that is neither accepted by God nor in accord with the requirements of the Law. It isn't even up to the standard of those Jews who practiced the Law in exile in the OT period, when they had no temple and no functioning priesthood.

Today, we have Rabbinical Judaism, which practices the Law without the temple and without the priesthood but also without sanction from God. It is not a legitimate practicing of the Law, which died on the cross, where Jesus pronounced that legal system "failed," the covenant failed.

God always knew a covenant based exclusively on the works of flawed men could never provide eternal life. And so, God always expected the Law to fail, requiring Israel to display both their righteousness and their failure in the same Law. Faith was displayed in the few who were faithful as the nation fell. And the failure of the nation demonstrated the fallen nature of Man, who could never attain to eternal life on his own.

The goal was to eventually lead to a system of redemption beyond the failure of Israel's covenant with God under Law. At the very time that Israel fell, and failed their covenant with God, Christ established God's covenant with them on a better basis, apart from the Law and based on his own flawless righteousness. When we enter into his spiritual life, free of charge, we are forgiven and obtain eternal life.

The separation of nations due to their ungodliness does not explain the creation of nations themselves. It only explains that the basis of their unity is not blessed by God. Nations result from families, which become communities, and eventually nations. This is all part of God's design, if only in a fallen world. It is still His plan.

There is a lack of commentary applying this to the opening post. Of course, we all agree on the Great Commission. Clearly, we are not just to teach people within nations, but to teach "nations," which includes their politics and social standards. They are to know that God's Kingdom places demands not just on the individual, but also on the whole social network.

Not always will governments accept this. But our job is to testify, and not to coerce. Judgment is God's domain.

Yes, I just answered that for someone else. The purpose of the Law was both faith for righteousness and the testimony against our obtaining eternal life by the works of flawed humans. No system, apart from Christ, can obtain eternal life.

So yes, the Law succeeded in its purpose. It proved men righteous by their faith, but ineligible for eternal life apart from Christ, because their own works were as flawed as Adam's was. A single sin kept Adam out of heaven. It is no different with us, who have a sin nature.

But as I said, the Law also showed faith for righteousness, which is why King David sang the praises of the Law. It was a form of hope for the future redemption Christ would bring. What Christ brought was eternal life *apart from the Law," so that righteousness would be eternal through him, who knew no sin. If we choose to live in his spiritual life, his flawless life covers our human flaws. It gives eternal life to flawed men.

The failure of Israel under the Law showed that the works of flawed men under the Law cannot fulfill the promises of God concerning Israel. But the righteous few who embraced Christ presently stand in for Israel's Hope, and will eventually oversee the reconstruction of Israel in the Millennium. Israel's national life will be based on the pattern of Christian faith, and not on Rabbinical Judaism.

I think you're stating things in the wrong terminology. It is the one covenant of Christ who affords different applications of this one covenant to the nations who embrace it. There may be one covenant for France and another for Italy, but they both represent the same Christian covenant.

So when I speak of a plurality of covenants, I'm referring to the practical application of one covenant to many nations who embrace Christ's covenant. That is not a contradiction, but rather, a fulfillment of the Gospel, as Paul said.

Gal 3.8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

No, that's certainly not what my principle implies, that an "unchanging God" can never do things differently in different situations! In the desert God may use snakes and scorpions for judgment. In lowlands God may use floods for judgment. I'm not at all saying God cannot employ different methods of judgment.

Nor am I saying that God can't progress in His goals. He may start out dealing with families, and later deal with nations. This is a change, but God's methodology with respect to His consistency and integrity is unchanging.

If God promised Israel will be a nation forever, then it would be inconsistent for Him to annihilate Israel. If God promised that Abraham's faith would be reproduced in a nation, it would be inconsistent to say God would not produce nations out of the faith of other men, or out of Abraham's faith, as well.

Yes, but God obligates Himself to His own word and promises, because He is omnipotent and always gets what He says.

“The purpose of the Law was both faith for righteousness and the testimony against our obtaining eternal life by the works of flawed humans.”

compare that with what Paul says brother “The purpose of the Law was both faith for righteousness”


“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. ( that’s his eternal covenant with all the nations )

So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:7-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the law is not about faith at all or justification in righteousness. What is written In The law is there for this purpose to bring us to the point that we can hear the gospel and be saved by faith

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The things the law commands were t and aren’t about being justified or righteous in Gods sight it’s meant for the purpose of condemning sinners not for righteousness

it’s meant to make these kind of people know their sinners and are condemned because of sin

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See when man was like this before the law was given they had no way to make a distinction between good and evil they didn’t know what sin was because they had no law In order to get them to repent the first step is to teach what is sin , and that they are all guilty and condemned unless they repent and accept the gospel now that he’s come with salvstion and faith

the law served its purpose bringing us to faith found in the gospel

The law was about before faith was available because Christ hadn’t preached the word yet so it’s function in the big picture is to make sin known to all mankind and make them know thier sinners and guilty this is the process of redemption

before faith came with the gospel the law was there as a harsh teacher not of faith or righteousness but of sin and death

“But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:23-27, 29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the law was until Christ preached the gospel died and rose. Until baptism really but they are prophetic and Christ fulfilled them

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:13‬

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The Old Testament led the world to the gospel which is faith the law is not faith or righteousness


the law was meant to last until Christ came to fulfill It and preach the gospel for repentance and remission of sin for salvation it was like a substitute teacher teaching from the vantage point of mans sin the fisoel is from Gods vantage point remitting mans sin

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-48‬ ‭

see the law is made to make the world guilty because of making sin known This happened first the first step the ot law

“what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

make our sins known To man first and everyone knows they are guilty that lead the world here to this everyone made guilty by the knowledge of sin then Gods mercy and grace is spread into the world afterwards and repentance unto salvation is his call to sinners now

“repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”

the ot made mankknd known sinners without excuse and the New Testament is about those sins being remitted through repentance and believing the gospel made of faith in Christ

My only point is if the world didn’t know they were sinners first when Jesus came preaching repentance they would t even know what he was talking about “ repentance ? What’s that ? Why do we need to change ? What’s sin ?

the knowledge of the law in the world paved the way for redemption to be preached in the world the old covenant leads to the new it served it’s purpose and still does when someone learns they are sinning from the things the law says it’s doing it’s job to point them to repentance and remission of sins piloting the. To Jesus and the gospel which is the only way for a sinner to be saved

you mean how the sons of Noah's sons were broken down into Nations before they ended up at Babel and then dispersed?

or are we discussing lineage of Seth?

Because many of us view Scripture so differently sometimes i choose to not post commentary. I agree with your post.

A true Christian will witness for Christ when indicated.

Why does He command us to.......herald our voice.......... in support of His word.

Brother, I'm not blind that you have to magnify your quotes giant-size--it's the equivalent of screaming at me! Do you really have to try to *force* your position upon others by screaming at them, by threatening them, or by accusing them of heresy?

So then I have an answer for you. Paul used "faith" as a code word for the *system of faith" described in the NT. He was not speaking strictly of faith, because clearly, observing the Law was done by Moses and the Israelites *by faith!*

It was not, however, operating as a NT system, which Paul called "faith," because it could not obtain the righteousness of Christ until he actually came, died, and gave his Spirit to men. If you think God asked Israel to obey the Law out of unbelief you're kidding yourself! This was said to Solomon...

1 Kings 9.4 “As for you, if you walk before me faithfully with integrity of heart and uprightness, as David your father did, and do all I command and observe my decrees and laws, 5 I will establish your royal throne over Israel forever, as I promised David your father when I said, ‘You shall never fail to have a successor on the throne of Israel.’