And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

Okay I am all ears. Verse please.

Matthew 8:12

Matthew 8:12 doesn’t say “Perpetually punished and barred from the Father's presence for eternity, they will suffer greatly.”

Well we already established the everlasting part, the fire part, the punishment part. Here in Matthew 8:12 the outer darkness part, plus some extra bonus nature of their suffering and actions of being in torment, weeping and gnashing of the teeth, which we know from before is eternal.

Ah you’re referring back to Matthew 25 where the unrighteous have everlasting punishment and the righteous have life eternal. The Bible says the punishment of the wicked is death.

So how do you define death and why do they have eternal life still if they’re dead?

They don't have eternal life if they're dead, the second death is worse than the first death, no coming back from where you are sent. The second death is the lake of fire on the outer limits in the darkness where they will weep and gnash their teeth forever, where the fire is never quenched, and their worm dies not.

Where does it just say they live forever and are tormented? I can dig up probably a dozen verses or more that say the unrighteous are put to death or are destroyed. I’m just not seeing where you’re seeing.

Actually when I first became a Christian I believed in eternal torment. I believed many things I was told to believe, then I began reading the Bible. Soon I realized there’s so many things that don’t have any Biblical support or very weak Biblical support being taught in the modern church.

There is plenty of biblical support. Tons of scriptures have been given to you and you can find them with a Google Search "What does the bible teach about eternal torment for the wicked dead"

The bible talks about spiritual death that define it differently than physical death. Eternal death for the wicked is defined as eternal suffering. Destruction of the wicked is defined as constant. It is a spiritual realm that is beyond the laws of physics and you cannot apply those laws to that realm. It has no end. Trying to understand it and needing an end to it, is a mental stumbling block that has resulted in these theories of annihilation.

Spiritual death is a real thing. Right now people can have full capacity of conscious awareness while being dead spiritually, and when their spirit leaves their body they will still be aware of the suffering they are in and still be spiritually dead.

Eph 2:1
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins 2in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit now working in the disobedient. 3We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love that he had for us, 5made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses.

John 5:24 “Truly I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.

1 Tim 5:6 however, she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives.

It is obvious that the bible defines a spiritual death that is not the same as a body in a casket that has no consciousness physically from the brain.

The argument about trying to define the word "destroyed" as having an end, is as weak as the attempt to say that "death" requires no consciousness. It is just confusion about defining English words in various contexts. The bible speaks in many cases of everlasting destruction, and a meaning of destruction that is constant.

But the bible is so verbose on the topic of the spiritually dead suffering forever that the average reader has no need of anyone teaching him another view which is why the majority of the modern church believes this, not because there is no biblical support but because it is the plain reading of the bible and we do not need any one to teach us that it means something other than what it says.

The stumbling block for the naturally minded man is whether it is too cruel. And this only reveals how we are soft on sin and don't see things the way God does.

Where does it just say they live forever and are tormented? I can dig up probably a dozen verses or more that say the unrighteous are put to death or are destroyed. I’m just not seeing where you’re seeing.

Actually when I first became a Christian I believed in eternal torment. I believed many things I was told to believe, then I began reading the Bible. Soon I realized there’s so many things that don’t have any Biblical support or very weak Biblical support being taught in the modern church.

How many times have we heard 'those who are not saved' will suffer ETERNAL TORMENT in the lake of fire? Would you believe that is NOT WRITTEN anywhere? I remember the first time I found out, I WAS angry, upset, incensed. Even people who know NOTHING else, seem to all know that. I was about to learn yet ANOTHER lesson...that 'meat' is so hard to chew sometimes especially when all you know is milk.


Rev 20:10 tells us

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hopefully all can agree what we read here is

The Devil has been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

the lake of fire and brimstone is where the false prophet and the beast were cast.

AND THE DEVIL shall be tormented forever,


Do we know anything else from what is written here? I don't, do you?


When we began to learn the words of God we learned,

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

the wicked PERISH, by being consumed, turned into smoke, ascend up and away

No mention of eternal suffering in the lake of fire.

SO WHERE did it come from?

It didn't come from here
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

IN the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels, WOULD REQUIRE THEY BE WATCHED FOREVER, if indeed they were to NOT BE CONSUMED but again

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


WE know from the PSALM that the wicked perish BY BEING consumed into smoke. Here AGAIN, we are told THE SMOKE of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Is there ANY CONSCIOUSNESS IN SMOKE? No.


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


So we see SPECIFICALLY who 'for ever and ever, day and night' is referring to. If we go past this and APPLY it to souls, IS THAT GODS TRUTH or our own?

I believe it would be our own because when you combine that information with

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.



Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


I can't find a single verse that states souls themselves will be tormented, just the smoke left from the consuming of them, which ascends up forever.

Have I missed any important SCRIPTURES, anything WRITTEN that changes any of this THAT isn't just conjecture or assumption?

What about those who were raised in a place where they never heard the gospel? No choice there, right?

Would I be correct in saying, you believe that the souls God created have stronger 'fire proofing' than the CONSUMING FIRE IS ABLE TO CONSUME?

There is plenty of biblical support. Tons of scriptures have been given to you and you can find them with a Google Search "What does the bible teach about eternal torment for the wicked dead"

The bible talks about spiritual death that define it differently than physical death. Eternal death for the wicked is defined as eternal suffering. Destruction of the wicked is defined as constant. It is a spiritual realm that is beyond the laws of physics and you cannot apply those laws to that realm. It has no end. Trying to understand it and needing an end to it, is a mental stumbling block that has resulted in these theories of annihilation.

Spiritual death is a real thing. Right now people can have full capacity of conscious awareness while being dead spiritually, and when their spirit leaves their body they will still be aware of the suffering they are in and still be spiritually dead.

Eph 2:1
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins 2in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit now working in the disobedient. 3We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love that he had for us, 5made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses.

John 5:24 “Truly I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.

1 Tim 5:6 however, she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives.

It is obvious that the bible defines a spiritual death that is not the same as a body in a casket that has no consciousness physically from the brain.

The argument about trying to define the word "destroyed" as having an end, is as weak as the attempt to say that "death" requires no consciousness. It is just confusion about defining English words in various contexts. The bible speaks in many cases of everlasting destruction, and a meaning of destruction that is constant.

But the bible is so verbose on the topic of the spiritually dead suffering forever that the average reader has no need of anyone teaching him another view which is why the majority of the modern church believes this, not because there is no biblical support but because it is the plain reading of the bible and we do not need any one to teach us that it means something other than what it says.

The stumbling block for the naturally minded man is whether it is too cruel. And this only reveals how we are soft on sin and don't see things the way God does.

what IF? God is the righteous Judge of those who the church has not reached The Holy Spirit is not limited, those called to be salt and light will answer for that too.

That is what the Millennium is for.

What other reason would God be building up this army of PRIESTS to rule and reign, if not to teach those who are raised up when He returns, 'the dead' , those who died never having heard His truth so died never having been saved.

Jesus said there is and those who go there go there forever and ever tormented day and night. NOW Jesus was lying?

People can make just about anything spiritual, allegorical, or metaphorical in the Bible with enough careful word-smithing and stringing together of unrelated verses to create a narrative. I don't see any reason why the plain text of the words death, life, destruction, perish, etc should be redefined or interpreted differently than their textbook definitions.

Spiritual death is literal death of the spirit. Jesus said people must be born again, Paul said those in Christ are a new creation, Ezekiel said God would put a new spirit in people. Think back to the fall of man, didn't God say the day they ate the fruit they would die? Well, they died spiritually because the wages of sin is death.

You'd have the Bible say death, but it isn't really death, or the Bible say people are destroyed but they are never destroyed, or that even those in hell receive eternal life despite Jesus saying only the righteous will receive immortality. I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense.

The stumbling block is the doctrine of eternal torment being preached to people and it has brought blasphemy on God for a long time and reproach on the church. It's very sad and I pray God could just fix it, but I am afraid this is our labor to sort this all out; thus I am here in this thread trying to reach you and others.

There will always be people like me right behind you preaching about what really happens to the wicked: the are destroyed permanently via death.

I am not concerned about the Millennium; today is the day of salvation.

I really do not see how God is cast in a better light when annihilationism teaches first people are punished and then annihilated.

As well a car can be destroyed does not mean it is gone from existence, it still exists, it still has matter.

Things can perish but they are still matter or energy but in a different form.

I do think there is no word in the ancient languages that is equivalent to annihilate, to become non-existent, nothingness.

As well, death in the original languages often means separation.

We've already been over how they are punished eternally, how they are in the act of weeping and gnashing teeth for eternity, what the location of this place is being fire that is eternal and at the outer darkness.

Lol if you thought the first time you began reading the Bible you knew some fun stuff, try reading all of it cover-to-cover, you will see much.

""view which is why the majority of the modern church believes this"",

is not a good argument in the face of

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.