Pentecostal Church?

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presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,160
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#41
Like I said what I'm finding aint good. I'm trying to find good.
Are you trying to 'find the dirt', man?

I've met thousands of Pentecostals who believe in Jesus. Isn't loving Jesus a positive thing?

I don't believe in the 'initial evidence doctrine', so there are some people who wouldn't consider me 'Pentecostal' anyway. But one thing I appreciate about Pentecostals is the general mindset about prayer, that you should really believe God to answer prayer, be it about healing, etc. There are a lot of bold prayers. Hebrews says to come boldly before the throne of grace.

An American who was an elder at plural eldership church overseas, who was from a Bible Church background noticed that a lot of the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches really emphasized prayer, also.

The Pentecostal movement grew because of boldness about evangelizing, going into all the world to share the Gospel. Isn't this good?

Isn't embracing spiritual gifts in the Bible a good thing?

I can say good things about Baptists, too.
 
P

Polar

Guest
#42
What I'm finding on the internet is very bad. Guys like Bethel church, Jim Baker, and this William fella.
Like anything there are very bad examples where ever ya look. But these and dozens of other very preachers is all I am finding.
I would hope that this isnt a good example and that someone could point me to a good example.
Trying to find the good here. Not getting any help.
Hi Dirtman

I noticed in your profile that you state you were saved 'at baptism' Is this accurate? When did you accept Christ if I may ask?
 

Dirtman

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2022
1,151
441
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#43
[QUOT
William Branham gets mentioned somewhat positively among some of the people in the signs and wonders movement. There is this small group that listens to his recordings in church, that his son was a leader in at some point in time. It is possible that some Pentecostal pastor somewhere outside of that movement had a positive opinion of Branham and shared it. But generally, I would think you won't find the vast majority of Pentecostals extolling Braham.

I was raised Pentecostal and I never heard of Branham until I borrowed a Roberts Liardon 'God's Generals' video in the early 1990's. This was a VHS tape with a young, thin Liardon, not the later series with the heftier Liardon. Liardon was in the 'Word of Faith' movement, not what I would call Pentecostal.

There are various movements that are somewhat similar. The Pentecostal movement started in the early 1900's, depending on who you talk to. There was a Welsh Revival and a revival in the mountains of North Carolina and Tennessee that had speaking in tongues and some other movements. In the US, there was a large revival that influenced a lot of missionaries and people in the Holiness Movement and various other evangelicals in Los Angeles California on Azusa Street as people there began to speak in tongues. There are many accounts of people hearing their own language 'in tongues' both there and in the rapidly growing Pentecostal movement from that time, and some of people speaking in tongues and others confirming both that and the interpretation of tongues.

At the same time, there were Pentecostal revivals in South America and India, so it didn't all come out of Azusa Street. Pentecostals believed in speaking tongues, interpretation of tongues, healing, and typically prophecy also. Certain denominations grew out of this, like the Assemblies of God. Other denominations like the Church of God in Christ became part of the Pentecostal movement. There was a denominational split with the Methodist Church of North Carolina resulting in the Pentecostal Holiness denomination.

A subset of the loosely affiliated Assemblies of God members, which didn't have a doctrinal statement, began preaching Oneness, non-trinitarian doctrine. So the Assemblies of God created a doctrinal statement which accepted a trinitarian viewpoint and caused the oneness to leave. A large group of them formed the United Pentecostal Church, now UPCI. Maye 5% of Pentecostals are Oneness. Typically, these are the ones who say you aren't saved if you don't speak in tongues, while generally other Pentecostals do not believe that. Trinitarian Pentecostal denominations consider baptism with the Holy Spirit to be an experience that can be subsequent to receiving salvation.

Around 1948 or 1949, William Branham started holding healing crusades. They say he brought a blind person on stage who was healed before everyone's eyes. They say he saw the angel of the Lord over people that were to be healed. He'd tell people detailed information about themselves. Some Pentecostals got together to support his crusades. But at least at some point, his teaching became or was more like Oneness Pentecostalism, and seemed to have this idea that some people are 'serpent's seed'-- maybe a biological kind of predestination belief. He would talk about his visions. As his doctrine got a little more unusual, Braham got his own following and was less connected with other churches. Some of his followers, which some call 'Branhamites' consider him to be one of the messengers of the church ages, an interpretation of the passage about angels of the churches in Revelation 2-3. He was considered to be an end-time Elijah. I heard some people even expected him to rise from the dead after he died.

Most Pentecostals have never heard of the man.

After the Pentecostal movement, in the 1960's, some Christians from 'mainline' churches began to embrace doctrine like Pentecostals on the baptism of the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts. These people were called Charismatics after a New Testament Greek word for spiritual gifts. A lot of them started Charismatic churches. A Baptist, named Kenneth Hagin, who was an Assemblies of God preacher for a while, who was influenced by EW Kenyon's teachings on faith went independent taught faith and influenced people in what was known as the Word of Faith movement. While some WOF teaching might influence an individual Pentecostal pastor, some of the Pentecostal denominations against some off the odd ideas flying around in the WOF movement. The WOF movement is more likely to influence the importance of faith resulting in financial so-called 'blessings', and there have been a number of controversial teachings like the idea that Jesus died spiritually after his crucifixion, and teaching on Christians being 'little gods'.

Roberts Liardon was in the WOF movement, and he made a video that focused on past individuals who had healing ministries as being 'God's Generals.'

Kenneth Hagin told about a preacher who was gifted as a prophet but tried to be a teacher but wasn't called to that, that Hagin sent a warning to. He spoke about how some people believed this preacher would rise from the dead. (I say spoke, because this was in one of his books, and I think Hagin's books may be transcribed sermons.) An author I read said he wrote Hagin and Hagin confirmed that he was speaking of Branham.

There is also the signs and wonders movement. In the 1980's, Fuller professor Peter Wagner called churches that embraced spiritual gifts that weren't a historical part of the Charismatic movement 'Third Wave' churches. This term isn't all that popular, but some of these types of churches developed into churches that emphasized personal prophecy, signs and wonders, and some of them became part of the 'New Apostolic Reformation.' Since some of the prophetic movement/signs and wonders churches had interaction with a preacher who used to minister with Branham, some of them studied about Branham and sometimes say positive things about him, but others are a bit concerned with some of the doctrinal issues later in his life.

Branham is held in high regard by Branhamites. I've never met one. I think they have congregations in the US and Africa, and listen to Branham's recordings, if the movement hasn't fizzled out. He's gotten some attention by WOFers. Some of the signs and wonders people might mention him. I'm not sure if he shows up in sermons or just in conversations. I've never heard him mentioned in a sermon by a signs and wonders movement preacher. I think Liardon had tape series about him. I don't know if even Liardon would mention Branham in a sermon back when he was pastoring, but i don't know.

IMO, it would be very unlikely that you'd go to a Pentecostal church and hear a sermon mention Branham. You probably wouldn't hear William Seymour mentioned either. It is extremely unlikely. Most Pentecostals have never heard of William Branham. If you come across someone who is into Pentecostal or American religious history, maybe that person has heard of him.
Thank you, this has been very helpful. .
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,008
4,317
113
#44
Are you trying to 'find the dirt', man?

I've met thousands of Pentecostals who believe in Jesus. Isn't loving Jesus a positive thing?

I don't believe in the 'initial evidence doctrine', so there are some people who wouldn't consider me 'Pentecostal' anyway. But one thing I appreciate about Pentecostals is the general mindset about prayer, that you should really believe God to answer prayer, be it about healing, etc. There are a lot of bold prayers. Hebrews says to come boldly before the throne of grace.

An American who was an elder at plural eldership church overseas, who was from a Bible Church background noticed that a lot of the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches really emphasized prayer, also.

The Pentecostal movement grew because of boldness about evangelizing, going into all the world to share the Gospel. Isn't this good?

Isn't embracing spiritual gifts in the Bible a good thing?

I can say good things about Baptists, too.
and missions
 

Dirtman

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2022
1,151
441
83
#45
Are you trying to 'find the dirt', man?

I've met thousands of Pentecostals who believe in Jesus. Isn't loving Jesus a positive thing?

I don't believe in the 'initial evidence doctrine', so there are some people who wouldn't consider me 'Pentecostal' anyway. But one thing I appreciate about Pentecostals is the general mindset about prayer, that you should really believe God to answer prayer, be it about healing, etc. There are a lot of bold prayers. Hebrews says to come boldly before the throne of grace.

An American who was an elder at plural eldership church overseas, who was from a Bible Church background noticed that a lot of the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches really emphasized prayer, also.

The Pentecostal movement grew because of boldness about evangelizing, going into all the world to share the Gospel. Isn't this good?

Isn't embracing spiritual gifts in the Bible a good thing?

I can say good things about Baptists, too.
This is productive conversation. THe goal is to find common ground.
This are good. I really like what you said about prayer. We should pray in Faith knowing God answers prayers, He not only answers prayer but directs them and gives us words to say.
 

Dirtman

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2022
1,151
441
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#46
And no dirt is far to easy to find.
 

Dirtman

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2022
1,151
441
83
#47
Hi Dirtman

I noticed in your profile that you state you were saved 'at baptism' Is this accurate? When did you accept Christ if I may ask?
Yes, its accurate
I dont believe one can accept Christ. I believe he captures you. Ya see He, Jesus is Lord.
Kind of a way to think of it is this.
By a captive will (captive to Christ) one is saved
By a free will one is doomed.

Kind of.
 

Dirtman

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2022
1,151
441
83
#48
I'm not Arminian or Calvinist. There are theological issues with both. There could be issues with my theology, but thats why I seek to learn.
 
P

Polar

Guest
#49
Yes, its accurate
I dont believe one can accept Christ. I believe he captures you. Ya see He, Jesus is Lord.
Kind of a way to think of it is this.
By a captive will (captive to Christ) one is saved
By a free will one is doomed.

Kind of.
Thank you for replying.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#50
I couldnt get any one to give me a good example of a Pentecostal preacher.
Just go to any website that is associated with the Assemblies of God. There should be plenty of Pentecostal preachers all over the world.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,774
624
113
#51
I couldnt get any one to give me a good example of a Pentecostal preacher. So I have been doing some digging on the internet. It seems a lot of Pentecostal or at least those who claim to be Pentecostal extolling a man named William Branham. Is this William Branham a prime example pf Pentecostal teaching?
I can't answer that well even Branham would not nor most preachers that know we are one body. I think this question will be based on personal viewsWilliam Branham just before preaching said "some here have a different doctrine that does not change salvation". He was a great man of God like no other. He did have some strange doctrines that I didn't agree with but he was a man of God. Each preacher out there is like him have some teaching others don't agree with there as others will say they are the best true man/woman of God :)

If they say Yeshua came in the flesh died on the cross for the words sin was buried and rose the 3rd day. Seated at the right hand of the Father the only way to the Father and Christ the only one between us and the Father. They are of God. Pentecostal is of God
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,251
3,591
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#52
Yeah, Branham was a great man of God.
The following information isn't my opinion but solid facts.





The following link is John Collins' website. Collins' grandfather was Branham's successor. Coliins grew up in Branham's cult and since leaving has done a tremendous amount of research, with more coming. Others have left the Branham cult as a result of Collins' research.

https://william-branham.org/

Another piece of evidence of Branham's cheap tricks is seen in the photo below. It's supposed to be a "halo" which appeared over his head as he preached. But it's been debunked and anyone with the slightest common sense can see it's a light in the background. This is just a small taste of Branham's deceptions.

 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
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London
christianchat.com
#53
I couldnt get any one to give me a good example of a Pentecostal preacher. So I have been doing some digging on the internet. It seems a lot of Pentecostal or at least those who claim to be Pentecostal extolling a man named William Branham. Is this William Branham a prime example pf Pentecostal teaching?
avoid Branham ...

Look up Joseph Prince ... T.L.Osborn.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,160
1,787
113
#54
Yeah, Branham was a great man of God.
The following information isn't my opinion but solid facts.





The following link is John Collins' website. Collins' grandfather was Branham's successor. Coliins grew up in Branham's cult and since leaving has done a tremendous amount of research, with more coming. Others have left the Branham cult as a result of Collins' research.

https://william-branham.org/

Another piece of evidence of Branham's cheap tricks is seen in the photo below. It's supposed to be a "halo" which appeared over his head as he preached. But it's been debunked and anyone with the slightest common sense can see it's a light in the background. This is just a small taste of Branham's deceptions.


From what I've read about Branham's doctrine, it was, or at least became, very bizarre, and not ideas I ever heard in a Pentecostal church. I never heard Pentecostals mention Branham. Some in the signs and wonders movement think highly of him, or think he had a genuine gift and then went off track.

I can't say I've ever encountered a Pentecostal or Charismatic who was favorable toward the Klu Klux Klan. That isn't consistent with the ethos of Pentecostal churches I've been in . Azusa Street was an interracial revival. Pentecostals typically heavily emphasize missions and there are lots of Pentecostals and Charismatics in Africa, Asia, etc.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
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#56
He did have some strange doctrines that I didn't agree with but he was a man of God.
How could Branham be "a man of God" and promote his bizarre doctrines at the same time? He was also a false prophet, making all kinds of predictions, and then trying to explain away why they never came to pass. Branham was influenced by the Oneness Pentecostal Movement. For those who wish to know more a book has been published: Investigating William Branham: The Unfolding Story of Plagiarisms and Errors Paperback – May 8 2019 by Bryan H. Smalls.
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
1,383
640
113
#57
I couldnt get any one to give me a good example of a Pentecostal preacher. So I have been doing some digging on the internet. It seems a lot of Pentecostal or at least those who claim to be Pentecostal extolling a man named William Branham. Is this William Branham a prime example pf Pentecostal teaching?
If you're looking for a good example of a Pentecostal preacher, then why not simply open your Bible to Acts chapter 2 in order to read Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost?
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,008
4,317
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#58
How could Branham be "a man of God" and promote his bizarre doctrines at the same time? He was also a false prophet, making all kinds of predictions, and then trying to explain away why they never came to pass. Branham was influenced by the Oneness Pentecostal Movement. For those who wish to know more a book has been published: Investigating William Branham: The Unfolding Story of Plagiarisms and Errors Paperback – May 8 2019 by Bryan H. Smalls.
he was wrong on some of HIS teachings but God used him and the testimonies bring glory to God. William B had many wrong people in his early conversion. The Oneness doctrine was just one of them. Yet God used him.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,008
4,317
113
#59
How could Branham be "a man of God" and promote his bizarre doctrines at the same time? He was also a false prophet, making all kinds of predictions, and then trying to explain away why they never came to pass. Branham was influenced by the Oneness Pentecostal Movement. For those who wish to know more a book has been published: Investigating William Branham: The Unfolding Story of Plagiarisms and Errors Paperback – May 8 2019 by Bryan H. Smalls.
also, William B was a Baptist in the KKK and then became Pentacostel.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,247
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#60
Thanks for the personal attack. I appreciate that very much.
I agree with you. The unwarranted attacks speak volumes about the character of many. I don't seem to recall accusers listed in the Fruit of the Spirit.