The Plan of salvation.

I sure have, and it is true. Only his sheep, (John 10:26-28), which include all of those that God gave to Jesus to die for (John 6:39).
And what exactly is "the free gift of eternal life"? Can you explain, "through my full trust in his work"

Can an unregenerate person who is spiritually dead trust in a spiritual God's work? What work do you have reference to?
Your exactly right. That describes all of those that he choose (Eph 1:4) before Christ died for them and redeemed them from that awful state of existence, and said that he would not lose any of them, but raise them up again at the last day (John 6:39).
I am not positive, but maybe Job 21:7-13 will shed some light on your question.
Just the elect are lost SHEEP.
I am not sure, but Job 21:7-13 might shed some light on your question.


the capital letters "FOR ALL" that you have inserted is what you would like the scripture to say, and even if it were true, it would refer to the elect (1 Pet 1:2) because those are "the us" that he might bring to God, in verse 18. One of the rules in keeping scriptures in context is to determine who Peter is speaking to.

All mankind were ungodly, including the elect, before Christ died for the elect's sins, and made them holy and without blame.


I refer you to Job 21:7-13 again.

The doctrine that Jesus taught is so much more honoring to God, giving him all of the praise and glory for saving those that he gave to his Son to die for, than the doctrines of men. The doctrine is so much more comforting, and gives so much more security to those that he has revealed it to, but for some unknown reason to me, The Holy Spirit reveals it to only a few.. I am sorry that you are not one of them.

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you not realize that if "the lost sheep" represents those who would be saved, you are, maybe unwittingly, admitting that everyone else isn't lost. Ever thought about that?
Wow. You actually admit to being a universalist then. Gee willikers.

But you just agreed that "everyone else isn't lost", since the Bible speaks of Jesus coming for "the lost sheep". Please make up your mind.

Sure can. Easily. When a person hears and believes the gospel promise of salvation, Jesus Christ gives the gift to the believer.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Believers possess eternal life. When they become believers.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. Jesus is the One who gives eternal life to people when they become believers.

I don't know what you mean by "spiritual work". The Bible doesn't use that language. The Bible says that Jesus Christ took our place on the cross and paid for our sins. And those who believe in Him for it are given eternal life.

Rom 2:14,15 teaches that the Gentiles, who don't have the Law, have the law written on their hearts, their CONSCIENCES bearing witness. So we see that God created mankind with a conscience with which to know right from wrong.

And Rom 10:10 says that man believes from the heart. His heart, not Jesus' heart.

Jesus' work. On the cross.

FreeGrace2 said:
For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.
Hold on a minute. Did you really read all the verses, and my comments with each verse? If you did, and you agree with your limited atonement idea, then you are a universalist, meaning that all of the non-elect go to heaven automatically, because they aren't "lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, or sinners".

FreeGrace2 said:
Matt 9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Are just the elect “sick”?
What do you mean you aren't positive? Isn't Matt 9:12 clear enough? Jesus said only the "sick" need a doctor and He said that in the context of who He came for. iow, if a person isn't "sick", it would mean that Jesus didn't come for him. So that means he would be saved automatically. Again, that makes you a universalist.

So, basically, everyone goes to heaven under that idea.

Then all the other sheep are NOT lost, and therefore, do NOT need a Savior to find them. Again, your view places you directly in the camp of the universalists.

FreeGrace2 said:
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?
So you can't answer my question. OK, let's look at the passage and get to the answer.

7 Why do the wicked live on, growing old and increasing in power?
8 They see their children established around them, their offspring before their eyes.
9 Their homes are safe and free from fear; the rod of God is not on them.
10 Their bulls never fail to breed; their cows calve and do not miscarry.
11 They send forth their children as a flock; their little ones dance about.
12 They sing to the music of timbrel and lyre; they make merry to the sound of the pipe.
13 They spend their years in prosperity and go down to the grave in peace.

What makes you think there is an answer here? Are JUST the elect "poor"? Jesus said He was annointed to preach to the poor. Was He referring to everyone or only "the elect".

If ONLY the elect, then all the so-called non-elect aren't poor and they don't need to be preached to by Jesus.

Quite a knack of twisting Scripture, or at least words.

Many of the verses about who Jesus died for have just the single word "pas". Which means "all". So you can't insert 'all kinds of" because that would be ridiculous. The verse would beg the question, "all kinds of" what? When "all" is alone, and there is NO context that would limit what "all" refers to, you can be sure it does mean everyone.

In fact, just look at all the English translations. Many scholars actually translate "all" as "everyone".

There is NOTHING in 1 Pet 1:2 or 18 that limits the scope of who Jesus died for. And nothing in the context either.

Wow. You are not reading the verse properly at all. So I will repeat the verse again. Please read it carefully.

FreeGrace2 said:
Rom 5:6 You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?

The verse and my question. If this verse had said, Christ died for SOME OF the ungodly then you would have a point. But the verse makes a general comment about who Christ died for. Since you ADMIT that "all mankind were ungodly", that is the answer to who Christ died for. All mankind, because all mankind is ungodly, and Jesus died for the ungodly.

What the verse DOESN'T SAY is that Jesus died for SOME OF the ungodly.

But that's how you are reading the verse. You are assuming what wasn't written.

We've seen the passage and there is no answer there.

Except Jesus taught that He would die for everyone. In John 10, Jesus uses "sheep" as a figure of speech for human beings. In the passage He identifies sheep that are HIS and sheep that are NOT His. Yet, He said plainly that He would die for THE sheep.

That would have been the perfect place for Jesus to say plainly that He would "lay down His life for HIS sheep", but He DIDN'T say that. He said He would lay down His life for THE sheep.

You are aware, I hope, that there are NO verses that teach any of this. Or quote the verses that plainly teach what you claim.

Your condescension is pitiful.

I have placed my faith in Jesus Christ for saving me by what He did on the cross on my behalf.

btw, how in the world can you stoop so low to make this ridiculous comment after what you previously posted:

FreeGrace2 said:
For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.
You AGREED with me. And I was sick, lost, poor and unrighteous, ungodly and a sinner. As is the whole human race.

Such condescension is quite unbiblical. Some soul searching is in order.

Sorry, I misread your statement. I believe that the scriptures teach that there will be far more people that are going to heaven than there will be that go to hell, but,"YES" I do believe that some are going to hell.

But the unregenerate person cannot believe in the things of thee Spirit, and thinks of them as foolishness. 1 Cor 2:14.
Who is it that hears his word and believes it? His sheep who are already born again (John 10:27-28)
Only his sheep hear his voice, and that is because they are already born again. Regeneration comes before spiritual belief.
One of the fruits of the Spirit is faith (spiritual faith). Only those that have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit believes in the things of the Holy Spirit, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes with regeneration.

The part before the comma is true, but everything after the comma is not true. If you think that you have scripture stating that fact, you are misinterpreting the scripture.

The stony heart of the unregenerate man will not respond to God pricking it, but the new and changed heart of flesh that the regenerated man has will feel guilt when God pricks it. Those Jews at pentecost were pricked in their hearts when Peter accused them of crucifying Christ. and responded by saying men and brethren what shall we do. The people that stoned Steven to death for preaching the same sermon that Peter preached, were cut to the heart.

I have no problem that the born again man believes with his new fleshy heart.

My bedtime, will answer your other questions later.
.

Adam and Eve broke the ten commandments?

FreeGrace2 said:
Wow. You actually admit to being a universalist then. Gee willikers.
Then it seems you DON'T BELIEVE what Jesus said in Matt 7-
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

i believe what Jesus said.

FreeGrace2 said:
Sure can. Easily. When a person hears and believes the gospel promise of salvation, Jesus Christ gives the gift to the believer.
Again, the gospel is not a spiritual issue. It is a trust issue. And unbelievers have a conscience with which to understand good and evil, per Rom 2:14,15. So unbelievers CAN and DO understand the gospel when presented.

In fact, Scripture tells us men REFUSE to believe. That proves that they can understand it.

Acts 14:2 - But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
Acts 19:9 - But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.


There is nothing in these verses that supports your claim. In fact, the Bible teaches that one is born again when they believe.


v.27 is a description of WHAT His sheep DO, or OUGHT to do. There is nothing about how to become one of His sheep, as you are insinuating.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive (regeneration) with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Here, Paul equates regeneration with salvation. The blue words clarify or explain the red words. Therefore, can't have one without the other. They go together.

Eph 2;8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

The blue words here are the exact same as at the end of v.5. The green words show the MEANS of salvation; through faith.

This proves that faith PRECEDES both regeneratiaon and salvation.

The fruit (singular) of the Spirit is what the Holy Spirit produces IN the believer, who is already saved.

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible says that Jesus Christ took our place on the cross and paid for our sins. And those who believe in Him for it are given eternal life
No, not misinterpreting. Quoting.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

This verse clearly teaches that those who believe (are believers) POSSESS eternal life, WON'T be judged, and HAS crossed over from death to life.

If you don't understand this simple verse, it is you who misunderstands Scripture.

You do know a lot of calvinist talking points. But none of this is biblical.

As just shown, regeneration and salvation occur together. And are preceded by faith. Eph 2;5,8.

You do not know what it says. You have your thought on what "destruction" means, but is it true, and does it harmonize with all of the other scriptures? Same goes for the word "life".

I agree that Jesus did a work (accomplishment) on the cross, but we do not agree on what that work was

.
Christ died for those that God gave him, which was those that God choose, his elect. Jesus did not die for the non-elect, therefore, none of the non-elect will go to heaven. Put some thought into what you are typing and it will keep you from typing things that make no sense.

Was hell created for the so called non-elect?

FreeGrace2 said:
Wow. You actually admit to being a universalist then. Gee willikers.

Then it seems you DON'T BELIEVE what Jesus said in Matt 7-
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

i believe what Jesus said.
I sure do know what it says.

Yes. Of course. I have no idea what your point may be. You need to clarify. The verse teaches that MOST people will end up in the LOF and relatively FEW will be with God forever.

What do you think the verse teaches?

Well, that's sad. The Bible says He took man's place on the cross to pay the sin debt. What do you think His work was?

Doesn't matter how many times or how often you repeat this, there are NO verses that say this.

Now you're flip-flopping. Can you show me any verse that specifically says who Jesus DIDN'T die for? Of course not.

lol. Show me ANY verse that clearly limits the scope of Jesus' death.

You are the one without any biblical evidence. There are plenty of verses that plainly say that He died for everyone.

If Christ didn’t die to give everyone an opportunity to believe in Him then what’s the point of the Great Commission?

About that I would see it in this way. The gospel is to preach for all. Nobody knows who will respond positiv. With other words nobody knows who is elect.
Or with an explanation from one of my former bibleteacher.
A person response positiv to the gospel. When he entered the heaven through a gate. He looked back to the top of the gate where it was written: "elected from begin of the world."
Maby this picture helps to understand.

If Christ died for only a few elect then those who have been chosen have salvation regardless of whether or not they hear the Gospel and those who haven’t been chosen are beat because there’s nothing they can do to ascertain salvation. Therefore sharing the Gospel is not only a complete and utter waste of time it’s actually a foolish directive.

Snacks said:
If Christ didn’t die to give everyone an opportunity to believe in Him then what’s the point of the Great Commission?
However, there is a real problem with this idea.

The gospel is personal. The message is to believe in the Savior. It would be a lie to tell some unknown "non-elect" to believe in the Savior. What was "of first importance" that Paul listed regarding the gospel?

1 Cor 15-
1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

Paul preached this very message to crowds in Corinth.
11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

And then there was a jailer who point-blank asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. Obviously the slave girl's message had gotten to him. Paul's answer: Believe and you will be saved.

All believers have been elected. But not to salvation, as calvinism claims. All election is to service.

Here is a list of who is described as "elect" in the Bible.

1. Jesus Christ, the elect One. Isa 42:1 He certainly wasn't chosen for salvation.
2. angels. 1 Tim 5:21
3. Jewish nation. Amos 3:2
4. all believers. Eph 1:4 the "us" here is defined in v.19 as "us who believe".
5. ALL 12 disciples, including Judas. John 6:70,71
6. 11 remaining disciples. John 15:16

1 Cor 1:27-28 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Heb 1:14 - Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

1 Peter 1-
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Regarding Paul's election:

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the task of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.

Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’

Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

There are NO verses that say that election is to salvation.

God, by his foreknowledge, saw that no one would seek him, that is why he choose an elect people, from among those that would not seek him, and predetermined that Jesus would die to pay for their sins, and adopt them as his children. (Eph 1:4-5) Jesus only died for those that God gave him, which were those that he had chosen (John 6:39). All of the rest of humanity will go to hell. If you would include all of the scriptures in your doctrine, and interpret them correctly, it would not be a false doctrine, in which all of those that go in the wide gate are teaching.

Your answer to my reference to Job 21:7-8; I was hoping that you could see that the wicked, according to Job, were healthy and prosperous and had no need of healing, unlike the poor and afflicted. Job 21:9 even says "neither is the rod of God upon them".

Heb 12:6-8 - For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening God dealeth with you as sons, for what son is he whom the Father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, wherefore all (that he loves) are partakers, then are ye bastards and not sons.

This also harmonizes with Psalms 73 and Romans 9:13-16.

You are reading into this scripture, with your preconceived mind, that Christ died for all mankind, which the scriptures do not teach. Those that are not his sheep, are not sheep at all, they are actually referred to as goats. (matt 25:32)


Again, the non-elect are not sheep, they are goats (matt 25:32)


Sorry that you are taking this personally. All I ment by that, is that you are interpreting the scriptures wrongly, and you are stepping on my toes much more than I am yours, and I hope that I am not taking it as personal as you.


We are all sick, lost, poor and unrighteous, ungodly and sinners, by our nature, the non-elect, as well as the elect. The elect does not leave behind their old nature just because they have been born again ((Rom 7:25)


1 Cor 2:14 tells us the frame of mind that the unregenerate person has, that he cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and thinks they are foolishness. With this frame of mind, if it were true that Jesus died to only offer eternal deliverance, what are the chances that with "this frame of mind" the unregenerate person would accept an offering of a spiritual existence in a spiritual heaven? What would be the necessity of being born again, if he could bypass the new birth and still get to heaven? We know that we have to be born again in order to inter the kingdom of heaven.

It is as if you avoid considering all of the scriptures to give the unregenerate person the power to save himself.

I hope that you do believe that God is a Spirit, and heaven is a spiritual place.

You continue to promote the FALSE DOCTRINE of Limited Atonement. Do you even realize what a serious matter it is to promote "another gospel"? Take some time to read Galatians chapter 1 and see that there is a curse of any other Gospel.

FreeGrace2 said:
What the verse DOESN'T SAY is that Jesus died for SOME OF the ungodly.

But that's how you are reading the verse. You are assuming what wasn't written.
Your sentence is full of calvinist talking points, none of which are found in the Bible. And Eph 1:4 isn't about salvation, but rather, service. iow, God has chosen ALL believers for service.

Again, I ask what verses say what you claim. I keep asking but you don't provide any verses.

And you keep repeating yourself, even though the verse doesn't even say that. The ones that God has given to His Son are those who have believed in Him. But there are NO verses that say that Christ died ONLY FOR believers. So why do you repeating that?

The ONLY REASON anyone will end up condemned is because they "never believed".

John 3:18 -
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.


2 Thess 2:12- and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Do you know what the words "have not believed" means? It means to NEVER HAVE BELIEVED.

That alone is the basis for being condemned.

What specifically are you referring to? What Scriptures have I not included? I've been ASKING for verses that show that Jesus died ONLY for some, and you have NOT provided any. So please don't take me to task for not including "all the Scriptures".

I gave you a long iist that specifically identifies who Christ came for (died for). And the list didn't say "some of" in any of the categories.

Therefore, in all of the categories, everyone is included.

For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

I gave you the verses that specifically say that He came for these: the sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners.

According to your theology, it would be ONLY the "elect" that He came for. So that would mean that ONLY the elect are sick, lost poor unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners.

Again, that would also indicate that everyone else ISN'T any of these things.

You would have to have a verse that says ONLY SOME of all these categories were who Christ came for.

How do these verses support your limited atonement claim?

Please don't just throw out verses with a comment. Quote the verse or verses and EXPLAIN how they are relevant.

I take the verses at face value. They all SAY He died for everyone. Your comment highly suggests that YOU are the wone who reads verses with a ery preconceived mind. That He didn't die for everyone. But the verses say otherwise.

They all teach it.

Let's not do a bait and switch. The subject passage is John 10, where Jesus notes sheep that are His, and sheep that are not His.

Yet, he SAID he would die for THE sheep. So forget your goats. There aren't any in John 10. Just sheep. Meaning people.

There are saved people (His), and unsaved people (not His). And He died for THE sheep.

Stay with Jon 10 and leave your goats at home.

When Jesus said He would die for THE sheep, He meant everyone. If your theology were correct, He would have said He would die for His sheep. But He didn't say that.

You need to face the facts.






Sorry that you are taking this personally. All I ment by that, is that you are interpreting the scriptures wrongly, and you are stepping on my toes much more than I am yours, and I hope that I am not taking it as personal as you.




We are all sick, lost, poor and unrighteous, ungodly and sinners, by our nature, the non-elect, as well as the elect. The elect does not leave behind their old nature just because they have been born again ((Rom 7:25)


1 Cor 2:14 tells us the frame of mind that the unregenerate person has, that he cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and thinks they are foolishness. With this frame of mind, if it were true that Jesus died to only offer eternal deliverance, what are the chances that with "this frame of mind" the unregenerate person would accept an offering of a spiritual existence in a spiritual heaven? What would be the necessity of being born again, if he could bypass the new birth and still get to heaven? We know that we have to be born again in order to inter the kingdom of heaven.

It is as if you avoid considering all of the scriptures to give the unregenerate person the power to save himself.

I hope that you do believe that God is a Spirit, and heaven is a spiritual place.[/QUOTE]

FreeGrace2 said:
What the verse DOESN'T SAY is that Jesus died for SOME OF the ungodly.

But that's how you are reading the verse. You are assuming what wasn't written.
Your sentence is full of calvinist talking points, none of which are found in the Bible. And Eph 1:4 isn't about salvation, but rather, service. iow, God has chosen ALL believers for service.

Again, I ask what verses say what you claim. I keep asking but you don't provide any verses.

And you keep repeating yourself, even though the verse doesn't even say that. The ones that God has given to His Son are those who have believed in Him. But there are NO verses that say that Christ died ONLY FOR believers. So why do you repeating that?

The ONLY REASON anyone will end up condemned is because they "never believed".

John 3:18 -
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12- and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Do you know what the words "have not believed" means? It means to NEVER HAVE BELIEVED.

That alone is the basis for being condemned.

What specifically are you referring to? What Scriptures have I not included? I've been ASKING for verses that show that Jesus died ONLY for some, and you have NOT provided any. So please don't take me to task for not including "all the Scriptures".

I gave you a long iist that specifically identifies who Christ came for (died for). And the list didn't say "some of" in any of the categories.

Therefore, in all of the categories, everyone is included.

For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

I gave you the verses that specifically say that He came for these: the sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners.

According to your theology, it would be ONLY the "elect" that He came for. So that would mean that ONLY the elect are sick, lost poor unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners.

Again, that would also indicate that everyone else ISN'T any of these things.

You would have to have a verse that says ONLY SOME of all these categories were who Christ came for.

How do these verses support your limited atonement claim?