And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

Sure I read them sometimes. Not often though. I agree with most points by most Bible commentaries by authors of any standing. On the point of eternal torment, I disagree with all of them. Have you read any commentaries, aside from mine, by those who espouse conditional immortality? Perhaps a more neutral setting would be of benefit to you.

Debates aren’t exactly conducive to learning when each side are just trying to prove their point, but honestly I learn quite a bit. When I am challenged I think harder, dig deeper, and search more. I’ve considered your points and those of others here. They didn’t convince me.

The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. That means those in hell don’t get eternal life. So they’re dead right? Why does eternal life mean living forever, but then death doesn’t mean death to you?

I don’t see there is a middle-ground or varying degrees. To me someone is either in Christ or they aren’t. They’re either forgiven or they aren’t.

I think the eternal torment crowd are honestly wrong about this. Trust me, I’ve been there. A couple years ago I was in the same boat as you, totally just going with the crowd on eternal torment. If someone told me I was wrong about it, I would have defended it like you’re doing now and I would have lost that discussion to dramatic effect, but I wouldn’t have accepted it until months later; my pride wouldn’t tolerate defeat.

So maybe just take off the “eternal torment” glasses and try to re-read the Bible without that assumption.

We are running in circles, because you understand death as being anihilation, whereas the Church understands death as separation from Life. Life with capital L. Death is the state of being outside of God.



There are varying degrees of the same faith. Jesus Christ revealed Himself on various degrees: He showed the Transfiguration only to Peter, Jacob and John. The Apostles didn't understand Jesus Christ in the same way (see for example the argument between Peter and Paul). Jesus Christ commended the faith of the bleeding woman, of the youngsters that brought their paralytical friend to Himself, in order to be healed, the faith of the thief, the faith of the centurion, yet, we can not say that they understood Jesus Christ the same way as did, the Saint Apostle John, for example, to whom was given the vision of the Apocalypse and who wrote the Revelations.

Jesus Christ says in John 14:2 that His Father's House has many rooms. That means that there are levels of getting closer to God: the closest person to God is, obviously, Saint Mary, who bore Him in her womb.

Jesus Christ also leaves his audience to understand that there are different levels of being far from God: there is the outside into the darkeness, there is also the abyssal distance between the rich man and Lazarus, a distance which can't be shortened.



This isn't about "pride which can't tolerate defeat". This is about believing one theological understanding over another; I have absolutely no reason to not believe in eternal torment since the Bible clearly speaks about it.



I don't read the bible with a certain aspect on my mind: I try to get an integral understanding of it.
Those who favor a certain aspect over the whole are, in my opinion, heretics. Usually, these people only know that thing they obsess about: in some cases it's the respect of Saturday, over Sunday, in other cases it's about God's name being Jehovah, others obsess about the oneness of God, others about predestination, Arie (the famous heretic of the second century) obsessed about Jesus Christ being the first creation of God etc.

They all have in common a unilateral thinking, a mind incapable of understanding and receiving the paradoxe. They try to make available for their limited minds the realities and the mind of God.

it is logical

But if you want to insist that the statement be repeated you must play by those same rules and admit that it does not say that those other occupants DO NOT suffer torment day and night forever.

You have to leave it at "they get cast into the Lake of Fire." The minute you say they do NOT suffer torment day and night forever you have added to the text. Your rules.

Sometimes explaining the obvious exposes the belligerent and impetuous.

Only Rev 20:14, and 15. which invalidates everything you said.

Those who claim that hell is "anihilation" either try to win converts by appealing to their instinctual fear of death, or they try to give a "humanistic" face to hell, whom they perceive too cruel. Their reasoning goes something like this: it's too cruel to suffer eternally, it's more "human" to end the suffering of the unsaved through annihilation. God isn't cruel, like the "eternal torment crowd" portray Him.

Their perception comes from a deviated understanding of God, eternity and hell.

Traditional christianity claims that:

1. there is a God,
2. there is the kingdom which is to come and,
3. there is the possibility to be in communion with God or outside of this communion, depending on the choices you make during your earthly life.

It's not fear of hell, they try to instill in man, but fear of missing on God, on the beauties and goodies of the Kingdom which "no eye has seen, no ear has heard and no human mind has concieved".

To Runningman, who cherrypicked some biblical verses (from the Old Testament) to sustain his view and asked me how do I understand them.

I understand them in balance to the verses from the New Testament which talk about eternal suffering.
In the parable of the ten virgins, five are accepted into the kingdom, five are left outside. In the parable of the ten minas, the person that didn't produce nothing is thrown outside, into the darkness. In the parable of the prodigal son: the lost and found son is enjoying the feast, while the older brother is watching from outside, incapable of feeling joy.

edit: there is also the parable of the rich and the poor Lazarus. The rich is in suffering and he is still incapable of changing his unloving, arrogant attitude towards Lazarus, whom he treat like a servant. Lazarus, on the other hand, would have accomplished the rich man's desire, but wasn't allowed by Abraham, who said that the rich man enjoyed the goodies of the earthly world, now he is receiving what he deserves for having been selfish.

Revelation 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.

And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Those who are dead were resurrected and if they are not found in the book of life then they are sentenced to death.

Anyone seen those cities since that day? Any screaming or torment going on or is it just utter destruction and burnt up nothingness there?

To Runningman, who cherrypicked some biblical verses (from the Old Testament) to sustain his view and asked me how do I understand them.

I understand them in balance to the verses from the New Testament which talk about eternal suffering.

In the parable of the ten virgins, five are accepted into the kingdom, five are left outside. In the parable of the ten minas, the person that didn't produce nothing is thrown outside, into the darkness. In the parable of the prodigal son: the lost and found son is enjoying the feast, while the older brother is watching from outside, incapable of feeling joy.

edit: there is also the parable of the rich and the poor Lazarus. The rich is in suffering and he is still incapable of changing his unloving, arrogant attitude towards Lazarus, whom he treat like a servant. Lazarus, on the other hand, would have accomplished the rich man's desire, but wasn't allowed by Abraham, who said that the rich man enjoyed the goodies of the earthly world, now he is receiving what he deserves for having been selfish.

Those who claim that hell is "anihilation" either try to win converts by appealing to their instinctual fear of death, or they try to give a "humanistic" face to hell, whom they perceive too cruel. Their reasoning goes something like this: it's too cruel to suffer eternally, it's more "human" to end the suffering of the unsaved through annihilation. God isn't cruel, like the "eternal torment crowd" portray Him.

Their perception comes from a deviated understanding of God, eternity and hell.

Traditional christianity claims that:

1. there is a God,
2. there is the kingdom which is to come and,
3. there is the possibility to be in communion with God or outside of this communion, depending on the choices you make during your earthly life.

It's not fear of hell, they try to instill in man, but fear of missing on God, on the beauties and goodies of the Kingdom which "no eye has seen, no ear has heard and no human mind has concieved".

I wouldn’t say I’ve cherry picked any verses, it’s just that those are the only available verses from the Old Testament that speak of the ultimate fate of the wicked.

There are no verses to the contrary of destruction as if by fire, burned to ashes, and smoke that disappears. The Bible is completely in harmony and I respected the context.

The New Testament doesn’t support eternal suffering either. You’ll never find that phrase anywhere in the OT or NT applied to all u saved people.

Know what each parable has in common? None of them say they have eternal torment.

Doesn’t say the rich man was in eternal torments. That’s your unjustified assumption.

And if hell mean cease to exist, more drug user chose go to hell, one of my drug user neighbor kill himself
i talk to his mom, do you know why, she say “ his life is like hell(suffer)” so he think kill himself is avoid suffer, because hell mean cease to exist?

so this doctrine have vested interest, design by devil to invite more people to hell

You’re quoting verses about immortal worms now. You really think there are worms that will never die in fire? Let me guess, worms have an immortal soul, but their body is destroyed?

I’m a Christian. I don’t belong to a denomination. Nor do I often listen to any preachers or read Bible commentaries. I just belong to God and read the Bible.