When did the Church begin?

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ForestGreenCook

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#21
Jul 8, 2018
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#21
John146 said:
There is a difference between Gods physical people Israel, the church in the wilderness, and Christs people, his church, which is his body. Christs church has his righteousness because they are in him. This righteousness in his body was not available to the OT saints.
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I understand this, somewhat, differently than you. I understand the scriptures to teach that all of God's elect, at sometime in their life, become born again in Christ, which make up the invisible church, and all of his elect are the bride of Christ. There is, however, some of God's elect that have been revealed, by the Holy Spirit, the knowledge of what Jesus accomplished on the cross and they are the visible church (reference Ezk 10:10) known as the remnant, the few, the little flock, etc.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

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#22
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#22
John146 said:
Question: If we are the same, where did those OT saints go when they died? Where they absent from the body and present with the Lord?
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My understanding is that the elect in the old testament were born again in just the same way that we are all born again, and that includes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as was Moses, explained in Isaiah 63:11.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

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#23
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#23
John146 said:
Answer: No, they were not absent from the body and present with the Lord because they did not have the blood of Christ. The best they could do is live a life pleasing to God under the law and end up in Abraham's bosom upon death, until the Lord could set them free with his blood.
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My understanding is that Jesus blood covered covered all of God's elect from Adam to the last elect person to be born again.
 
Pemican

Pemican

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Sep 27, 2014
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brightfame52 said:
I believe the Church started with Adam and Eve !
Click to expand...
People like to think that Christianity started about 2,000 years ago. But actually the Christian faith of believing in the messiah / savior started in the Garden of Eden just after the fall. Gen 3:15 is the first gospel message of a coming savior. As you would expect, God was looking out for the salvation of man from the beginning.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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All who believe and have gone to sleep will be resurrected on the last day, and this includes all who sleep in the home of Jesus Yeshua.. We do not die and go directly up to the Throne of the Almighty. It is written quite plainly that we sleep until his return.
 
D

Dirtman

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#26
Jul 19, 2022
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John146 said:
Answer: No, they were not absent from the body and present with the Lord because they did not have the blood of Christ. The best they could do is live a life pleasing to God under the law and end up in Abraham's bosom upon death, until the Lord could set them free with his blood.
Click to expand...
You talking about thee blood of the Lamb slain before the foundations of the world???
God is not limited by our time line.
His crucifixion was fore ordained and before it happened in time it cover those who lived by faith.
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

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JaumeJ said:
Abraham is thee first to receive the Gospel. There is but one Gospel.
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Satan, Adam and Eve where the first to hear the Gospel Preached on earth.

Adam and Eve were the first recipients of the Gospel of Grace under the shed blood of the lamb.

Adam and Eve(and all who believed the Word) would have to wait until Shiloh came and nailed the Law, curses, sins and penalties to His Body on the Tree.
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

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MOC said:
Most Christians today believe and teach that the Church started on the day of Pentecost. When Jesus tells Peter, "I will build my church...." was a forecast of what was to come upon His death and resurrection. Jesus asked His disciples in Matthew 16:13, "whom do men say that I the son of man am?" Peter answers, "Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God." Jesus goes on to tell Peter that, "upon this rock" or Peter's faith, He will make this the foundation of His church. Matthew 16, is where "church" is first mentioned. Since Jesus is the one who stated this, then it would hold some merit. Many argue today that the "assembly" of the people of God is one, therefore is a mistake to teach that the church began at Pentecost. Church leaders refer to the Old Testament people who gather and worship God as the "church". But this is Israel, God's chosen people, and the gentile nations had not yet been indoctrinated into God's church yet. When Jesus says that He will build His church, He is referring to everyone, including gentiles.

Church
The Greek word for church is Ekklesia. This comes from two words that mean, "called" and "out from and to." So, two Christians stepping out and assembling themselves out from the world to worship God, can be the church. The Bible describes the church as "the body of Christ" and uses marriage as Christ's relationship with the church. Most Christians believe the church started the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2 when over a hundred followers of Christ received the Holy Spirit and later that day after hearing Peter preach the word, thousands were saved.

Ephesians 1:22-23 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all." The church could have NO functioning head until AFTER the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Ephesians 4:11-13 "And he gave some, Apostles; and some Prophets; and some Evangelists; and some Pastors and Teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith." When Jesus is talking to Peter about the church, the aim of His ministry is in this verse, "for the edifying of the body of Christ."

It is unfortunate that when Christians speak about when the church started that it divides God's people and puts them into different theological camps based on their understanding of the Bible. 1 Corinthians 12:12-14 speaks of believers being "one body" and that it doesn't matter if you are "Jew or Gentile". We as believers in Christ are one body or one church.

Acts 1:4-5 "being assembled together.......but wait for the promise of the Father......but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Many point to this passage as showing that the church had not started until the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:38 "This is he, that was in the church..." Stephen is speaking to the Israelites who have accused him of disrespecting Moses and the law. "church" is used to describe the gathering of these Israelites and is not to be misunderstood as the church we know of today. The Greek term "Ekklesia", sometimes possesses its general sense of congregation or assembly. In this passage, it is used for the gathering of the nation of Israel when it received the law.

The first time Jesus meets Peter is in John 1:35-43. It is also the first for Andrew too. Andrew finds his brother Peter and takes him to meet Jesus. It is at this encounter that our Savior calls Peter, "Cephas", which means stable as a rock(Aramaic). In Greek, Peter means "rock". The next time Peter meets Jesus is when Jesus starts His ministry, in Matthew 4:18-20. Jesus says, "follow me. I will make you fishers of men." Andrew and Peter were casting their nets, but immediately dropped what they were doing to start this journey with Jesus. Although Jesus had already met with some of His disciples, this doesn't mean He had started the church. It is only the BEGINNING of His teachings and guidance of introducing to them the start of the church.

Assembling of church in the Old Testament
In Deuteronomy 4:10, "Gather me the people together and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children." This "gathering" of people is that of Israel as an act of obedience to God's law. The one true church is the assembling of EVERYONE to worship our Father.
Click to expand...
Really great read brother I enjoyed the depth and detail and articulation of your thinking thanks alot for taking the time to share I could ramble on but will spare you lol

I would say the “church “ is most likely first seen and not yet made known , here it’s just hidden in the beginning of the Bible and revealed as you hear the gospel and New Testament

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth….. ( father )

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. ( spirit )

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. ( Word)

(God created the earth and filled the heavens and earth with life and then creates the church and blesses them and gives them their role and purpose in existence )


And God said, Let us make man in our image, ( Father , spirit , son) after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth,…….. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1-3, 26-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you then soon after have transgression , which brings law , sacrifice and atonement which would constitute th church

the sons of god

“which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:38‬ ‭

who inherit the earth being thier rightful inheritance even from creation to have dominion on earth

Who inherit companionship with God by his spirit and his name which brings dominion over this corrupt world and salvation into the eternal one of righteousness.

have you noticed how the things Jesus promises us will come if we believe , are The things we originally were created to have and we’re given freely in Eden ? But the. After that we transgressed and lost our rightful place ?

the new testament is about restoration and reconciliation to the beginnings of God and man before sin is say the church understandkng is founded there where mans true purpose is shown to reflect his image in the world and be a light in darkness having rule over the corruption in the world and coming out from the darkness by his spirit and word

well I guess I’m rambling like o was t going to lol sorry I’ll stop great read and thought provoking post you shared my friend thanks and God bless
 
B

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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#31
Pemican said:
People like to think that Christianity started about 2,000 years ago. But actually the Christian faith of believing in the messiah / savior started in the Garden of Eden just after the fall. Gen 3:15 is the first gospel message of a coming savior. As you would expect, God was looking out for the salvation of man from the beginning.
Click to expand...
Yeah but God had only one particular seed in heart in the beginning. Remember Gen 3:14-15

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Now the seed of the woman is Christ and the church ! Adam and Eve represented the Church's beginning in their natural lives.
 
J

John146

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#32
Jan 13, 2016
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#32
Dirtman said:
You talking about thee blood of the Lamb slain before the foundations of the world???
God is not limited by our time line.
His crucifixion was fore ordained and before it happened in time it cover those who lived by faith.
Click to expand...
The Lamb was not slain before the foundation of the world. The plan that He would come to save man through his blood was before the foundation of the world.
 
J

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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#33
JaumeJ said:
All who believe and have gone to sleep will be resurrected on the last day, and this includes all who sleep in the home of Jesus Yeshua.. We do not die and go directly up to the Throne of the Almighty. It is written quite plainly that we sleep until his return.
Click to expand...
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
 
D

Dirtman

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#34
Jul 19, 2022
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#34
John146 said:
The Lamb was not slain before the foundation of the world. The plan that He would come to save man through his blood was before the foundation of the world.
Click to expand...
Revelation 13: 8
"... Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".
 
chess-player

chess-player

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MOC said:
Most Christians today believe and teach that the Church started on the day of Pentecost. When Jesus tells Peter, "I will build my church...." was a forecast of what was to come upon His death and resurrection. Jesus asked His disciples in Matthew 16:13, "whom do men say that I the son of man am?" Peter answers, "Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God." Jesus goes on to tell Peter that, "upon this rock" or Peter's faith, He will make this the foundation of His church. Matthew 16, is where "church" is first mentioned. Since Jesus is the one who stated this, then it would hold some merit. Many argue today that the "assembly" of the people of God is one, therefore is a mistake to teach that the church began at Pentecost. Church leaders refer to the Old Testament people who gather and worship God as the "church". But this is Israel, God's chosen people, and the gentile nations had not yet been indoctrinated into God's church yet. When Jesus says that He will build His church, He is referring to everyone, including gentiles.

Church
The Greek word for church is Ekklesia. This comes from two words that mean, "called" and "out from and to." So, two Christians stepping out and assembling themselves out from the world to worship God, can be the church. The Bible describes the church as "the body of Christ" and uses marriage as Christ's relationship with the church. Most Christians believe the church started the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2 when over a hundred followers of Christ received the Holy Spirit and later that day after hearing Peter preach the word, thousands were saved.

Ephesians 1:22-23 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all." The church could have NO functioning head until AFTER the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Ephesians 4:11-13 "And he gave some, Apostles; and some Prophets; and some Evangelists; and some Pastors and Teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith." When Jesus is talking to Peter about the church, the aim of His ministry is in this verse, "for the edifying of the body of Christ."

It is unfortunate that when Christians speak about when the church started that it divides God's people and puts them into different theological camps based on their understanding of the Bible. 1 Corinthians 12:12-14 speaks of believers being "one body" and that it doesn't matter if you are "Jew or Gentile". We as believers in Christ are one body or one church.

Acts 1:4-5 "being assembled together.......but wait for the promise of the Father......but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Many point to this passage as showing that the church had not started until the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:38 "This is he, that was in the church..." Stephen is speaking to the Israelites who have accused him of disrespecting Moses and the law. "church" is used to describe the gathering of these Israelites and is not to be misunderstood as the church we know of today. The Greek term "Ekklesia", sometimes possesses its general sense of congregation or assembly. In this passage, it is used for the gathering of the nation of Israel when it received the law.

The first time Jesus meets Peter is in John 1:35-43. It is also the first for Andrew too. Andrew finds his brother Peter and takes him to meet Jesus. It is at this encounter that our Savior calls Peter, "Cephas", which means stable as a rock(Aramaic). In Greek, Peter means "rock". The next time Peter meets Jesus is when Jesus starts His ministry, in Matthew 4:18-20. Jesus says, "follow me. I will make you fishers of men." Andrew and Peter were casting their nets, but immediately dropped what they were doing to start this journey with Jesus. Although Jesus had already met with some of His disciples, this doesn't mean He had started the church. It is only the BEGINNING of His teachings and guidance of introducing to them the start of the church.

Assembling of church in the Old Testament
In Deuteronomy 4:10, "Gather me the people together and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children." This "gathering" of people is that of Israel as an act of obedience to God's law. The one true church is the assembling of EVERYONE to worship our Father.
Click to expand...

So, you know that the church (Ekklesia= called out from the world) was God's idea therefore it began in the mind of God (Father, Son, and Spirit) before the foundation of the world, but began to take shape and form with the congregation of Israel of the OT. They too were called out to be separate and to teach the nations how God works with faithful people. Well, they failed in that sense, but God didn't.

When God became incarnate, the body of Christ was also born as God's purpose always was to unite us to Him and thus be included in the family of God. The ultimate purpose of God is for us to be in Christ, Christ is in God and God is in us (Jn 14:17, 20, 17:21). We are the BODY of Christ on earth, but we are also sitting in heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 2:6).
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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Jul 2, 2011
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#36
DavidTree said:
Satan, Adam and Eve where the first to hear the Gospel Preached on earth.

Adam and Eve were the first recipients of the Gospel of Grace under the shed blood of the lamb.

Adam and Eve(and all who believed the Word) would have to wait until Shiloh came and nailed the Law, curses, sins and penalties to His Body on the Tree.
Click to expand...
My understanding has always been from
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
I know that Adam, Eve, and even Satan had knowledge of the Father even walking with Him until the fall, however, as far as I understand from Genesis, the Gospel was told to Abraham and promised to him as a blessing for all mankind who would one day receive it. Forgive my ignorance if I misunderstand. The Epistles seem to be at the base of many misunderstandings.
 
squint

squint

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heb 11:
32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Started with Jesus
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

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#38
JaumeJ said:
My understanding has always been from
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
I know that Adam, Eve, and even Satan had knowledge of the Father even walking with Him until the fall, however, as far as I understand from Genesis, the Gospel was told to Abraham and promised to him as a blessing for all mankind who would one day receive it. Forgive my ignorance if I misunderstand. The Epistles seem to be at the base of many misunderstandings.
Click to expand...
YES, i am quite familiar with this beautiful passage from the Holy Spirit thru the Apostle Paul.

Avraham is the KEY figure whereby Elohim began the Authority of His Gospel in actual life-form using the Three Patriarchs.

Avraham = Father
Yitzach = Only Begotten Son of the Father thru Sarah
Yacov = Ruach HaKodesh = Holy Spirit

It is most beautiful to see Elohim prophesying His Victory over satan and sin from the Beginning = Genesis 3:14-15

So the Lord God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

The First Lamb Sacrifice performed by Yahweh Elohim for man = "Also for Adam and his wife the Yahweh Elohim made tunics of skin, and clothed them." Genesis 3:21
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

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p_rehbein said:
The Church began at Pentecost IMO
Click to expand...
The New Covenant Congregation began the moment Yeshua walked this earth and called the disciples unto Himself.
Once Messiah laid down His Life unto death and shed His Blood, the vail to the Holiest Place was ripped open in the Temple.

There was always a 'Called Out Assembly' by the LORD beginning with Adam and Eve.

The word 'church' is same meaning as the 'congregation' or 'assembly'.

Acts 7:37-38
This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear.’
38“This is he who was in the congregation(church) in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us,
 
wattie

wattie

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Feb 24, 2009
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#40
MOC said:
Most Christians today believe and teach that the Church started on the day of Pentecost. When Jesus tells Peter, "I will build my church...." was a forecast of what was to come upon His death and resurrection. Jesus asked His disciples in Matthew 16:13, "whom do men say that I the son of man am?" Peter answers, "Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God." Jesus goes on to tell Peter that, "upon this rock" or Peter's faith, He will make this the foundation of His church. Matthew 16, is where "church" is first mentioned. Since Jesus is the one who stated this, then it would hold some merit. Many argue today that the "assembly" of the people of God is one, therefore is a mistake to teach that the church began at Pentecost. Church leaders refer to the Old Testament people who gather and worship God as the "church". But this is Israel, God's chosen people, and the gentile nations had not yet been indoctrinated into God's church yet. When Jesus says that He will build His church, He is referring to everyone, including gentiles.

Church
The Greek word for church is Ekklesia. This comes from two words that mean, "called" and "out from and to." So, two Christians stepping out and assembling themselves out from the world to worship God, can be the church. The Bible describes the church as "the body of Christ" and uses marriage as Christ's relationship with the church. Most Christians believe the church started the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2 when over a hundred followers of Christ received the Holy Spirit and later that day after hearing Peter preach the word, thousands were saved.

Ephesians 1:22-23 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all." The church could have NO functioning head until AFTER the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Ephesians 4:11-13 "And he gave some, Apostles; and some Prophets; and some Evangelists; and some Pastors and Teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith." When Jesus is talking to Peter about the church, the aim of His ministry is in this verse, "for the edifying of the body of Christ."

It is unfortunate that when Christians speak about when the church started that it divides God's people and puts them into different theological camps based on their understanding of the Bible. 1 Corinthians 12:12-14 speaks of believers being "one body" and that it doesn't matter if you are "Jew or Gentile". We as believers in Christ are one body or one church.

Acts 1:4-5 "being assembled together.......but wait for the promise of the Father......but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Many point to this passage as showing that the church had not started until the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:38 "This is he, that was in the church..." Stephen is speaking to the Israelites who have accused him of disrespecting Moses and the law. "church" is used to describe the gathering of these Israelites and is not to be misunderstood as the church we know of today. The Greek term "Ekklesia", sometimes possesses its general sense of congregation or assembly. In this passage, it is used for the gathering of the nation of Israel when it received the law.

The first time Jesus meets Peter is in John 1:35-43. It is also the first for Andrew too. Andrew finds his brother Peter and takes him to meet Jesus. It is at this encounter that our Savior calls Peter, "Cephas", which means stable as a rock(Aramaic). In Greek, Peter means "rock". The next time Peter meets Jesus is when Jesus starts His ministry, in Matthew 4:18-20. Jesus says, "follow me. I will make you fishers of men." Andrew and Peter were casting their nets, but immediately dropped what they were doing to start this journey with Jesus. Although Jesus had already met with some of His disciples, this doesn't mean He had started the church. It is only the BEGINNING of His teachings and guidance of introducing to them the start of the church.

Assembling of church in the Old Testament
In Deuteronomy 4:10, "Gather me the people together and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children." This "gathering" of people is that of Israel as an act of obedience to God's law. The one true church is the assembling of EVERYONE to worship our Father.
Click to expand...
First church?

Jesus and His disciples were the first New Testament church. They did all the work of a church and had Jesus as the Head.

They had the Lord's Supper. They were assembled together. They practiced discipleship. They carried out the Great Commission. They spread the Good News. The disciples had key roles in running the church so it worked together in unity.

Israel were an assembly, ecclessia .. in the wilderness... but not the New Testament church.

Pentecost is a church empowered.. not started. The Holy Spirit hadn't come as the Comforter before this.. but Jesus was there with the disciples before Pentecost. If He isn't enough as the Head and starter of the first church.. I don't know what is!

Matthew 16:18-- I will build my church.. this is before Pentecost. So you may say.. oh that is in the future.. hasn't happened yet.. well there is a problem with that line of thinking..

Matthew 18 has Jesus talking of speaking to the church for the purposes of resolving sin issues BEFORE pentecost also!

So you may say that is also a future reference to when the church will be started... well then we go back to the fact that Jesus was doing real church work with the disciples before Pentecost.

So then you may say matthew 16:18 is of the universal, invisible body of all believers... well... why then does Jesus refer to something entirely different to that in pretty much every other ref to church later of a local and visible church?

Logically Jesus would have been referring to a local and visible church in Matthew 16:18 also.
 
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