Former pentecostal

Just in case you don't read everyones posts because the above reason makes no sense in the light of

2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

2 Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

2 Timothy 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

2 Timothy 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.


BEING DELIVERED would mean those things WERE taken away, WHILE THE THORN was not.

Perfect in the sense of completion... maturity... lacking nothing.

Definitely tells us HE WOULD NEVER PRAY to have those things he knew he must suffer taken from him then, does it?

So I decided that cessationist are right. The Bible is " that which is perfect" for when gifts will cease. Now we know how to pray and live. I was a pentecostal for most of my life. But I find that if I ask in prayer the one giving tongues is an evil spirit. You've got to be careful. Not every spirit is of God. Try the spirits.

LOL, Paul said he prayed to have them stopped. Three times he prayed he said. He got his answer From the Lord. The word of God says HE would not allow us to suffer above what we are able. That is Promise.

Wouldn't a thorn in your side cause you to always be slightly bent forward?

I am moving from eyesight as the thorn, to an actual thorn of some sort, keeping him humble, never allowed to stand tall and proud and look conceited.

No, PAUL DID NOT PRAY TO HAVE THEM STOPPED. Paul KNEW they went with the territory.

Can you show me where he prayed to have all the persecutions stopped. I would like to see where THAT is written, not what is 'supposed' from something that is, If Paul did have some thorn in his side, HOW exactly do you think that prayer would have gone?



PAUL KNOWING we were appointed to them PRAYED to have them taken away? Preaching no man should be moved by them THEN praying they be taken away? That is like speaking with a forked tongue, isn't it.


1 Thessalonians 3:1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith 3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. 4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. 5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.


Don't you think Paul knew this command?
Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


Even in the end
2Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

2Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

2Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

2Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

He knew all he was to suffer and he finished his course. ASKING that his 'course' be removed from him, is not biblical. The thorn in his side, yes, but asking that all the persecutions be taken away would have been asking for HIS MINISTRY to be taken away.

So we must agree to disagree, but I do Paul NEVER suffered more than he was able.

LOL, OK if you say so.

But Paul said in 2cor 12: 8

KJV 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

NKJV 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.

Paul did that through Prayer, or do you think it was carrier Pigeon?

The context of Paul's throne in the flesh is said in 2cor 12:7-11


Paul says

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


Because The Lord said to Paul " My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. "


10 Therefore I(Paul) take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
the description of what Paul prayed to have the Lord take away was

listed: infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake:

No, PAUL DID NOT PRAY TO HAVE THEM STOPPED. Paul KNEW they went with the territory.

Can you show me where he prayed to have all the persecutions stopped. I would like to see where THAT is written, not what is 'supposed' from something that is, If Paul did have some thorn in his side, HOW exactly do you think that prayer would have gone?



PAUL KNOWING we were appointed to them PRAYED to have them taken away? Preaching no man should be moved by them THEN praying they be taken away? That is like speaking with a forked tongue, isn't it.


1 Thessalonians 3:1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith 3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. 4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. 5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.


Don't you think Paul knew this command?
Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


Even in the end
2Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

2Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

2Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

2Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

He knew all he was to suffer and he finished his course. ASKING that his 'course' be removed from him, is not biblical. The thorn in his side, yes, but asking that all the persecutions be taken away would have been asking for HIS MINISTRY to be taken away.

So we must agree to disagree, but I do Paul NEVER suffered more than he was able.

the empowering of the Holy Spirit and the word of God is what completes the believer. Jesus said that in John 14

Definitely tells us HE WOULD NEVER PRAY to have those things he knew he must suffer taken from him then, does it?

Wouldn't a thorn in your side cause you to always be slightly bent forward?

I am moving from eyesight as the thorn, to an actual thorn of some sort, keeping him humble, never allowed to stand tall and proud and look conceited.

God hasn't given away his power!

No cessationist says that. The gift of miracles put away... not Gods power independently to heal and do miracles.

Epaphroditus....ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God Had MERCY On him (Phi 2:25-27)

Epaphroditus was healed. How did you miss that. ...That is a HEALING.

I think if Paul had become a cessationist before he had finished penning the complete revelation it would have found it's way into the revelation.

He could ask for a particular person, messenger of satan, Thorn in his side that was interrupting his Church planting efforts to be stopped and it would not mean that he was asking God to deliver him from all forms of persecution.

So he had a thorn...from a sweet rose no doubt...stuck in his side and ne'er the person born who could pull it out

I am gobsmacked. Don't know whether to laugh or cry. Hiccups also seem a possibility.

Self control prevents me from saying some things

You are right, he absolutely could have. Let's take one last look at the context and WHAT THE THORN WAS ABOUT. WHY WAS IT PUT THERE.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2 Corinthians 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

HE is glorying IN HIS INFIRMITIES. Not in himself but IN HIS INFIRMITIES. Are we even in agreement up to here? or are you reading this in another way? If so, please let me know


2 Corinthians 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

So that on earth NO ONE would exault him because he had received so much TRUTH from God and they would stop LOOKING to the ONE WHO gave it,

HE was given a thorn, something to KEEP HIM from being exaulted.

Does it sound right that he prayed that he would be KEPT from persecution so HE WOULD NOT BE EXAULTED ABOVE MEASURE? Is that what you are saying?

Are you also saying that something in his flesh that kept him from being exaulted, something like a thorn in his side, keep him bent over, keep him humble, is just out of the realm of possibilities?

2 Corinthians 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Imagine this. He has great revelations and insight and the people are loving it and even the synagogue rulers are agreeing with his excellent exegesis and scriptural interpretations about Jesus from the OT. Then this Thorn in his side arrives and stirs things up and they throw him out.

He went from "oh your the next Elijah, in our eyes" which could be ego stroking, to "get out of here you Law breaker" which would be humbling. This would indeed keep him from getting an ego.

Asking the Thorn in his side to depart three times (possibly three different cities where the messenger of satan, that Thorn in his side, that enemy of Israel, followed him and stirred up trouble) The trouble resulted in infirmities but I think he was asking for the Thorn in his side to depart (not that general persecutions depart) because he (the thorn) was interrupting success in his church planting efforts.

God showed him that the persecution that the Thorn in his side (that person) was stirring up was going to be used by God to give Paul more power and grace. And when Paul figured that out he said. YES THEN. BRING IT.