Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

2 tim g

I usually read the kjv and it uses the word purpose. prothesis:

a setting forth, i.e. fig. proposal, spec. the showbread, sacred (bread)

a setting forth, the show-bread; predetermination, purpose.

pró, "before" and 5087 /títhēmi, "purposefully set forth") – properly, providence – literally, "a setting forth in advance for a specific purpose ("God's pre-thesis").


Okay, How were they relieved of the curse of the Lord ?

How and when are they granted the ability to repent ?

How and when do they receive the eternal gift of the Spirit?

How do they come to believe the Gospel ?

Thanks

Yes. I quote from the KJV as often as it is clear. To me, there is no difference between Plan and Purpose. I often capitalize Purpose just as I do Plan. They are most Holy Words.

I appreciate all of your questions, but I only have time to stick with the purpose of this thread, which is to show another side of the Bible that places an emphasis on the Power of our Almighty God.

Day 238 of the timeline, chronological reading plan offers a crystal clear indication of who is in control of all things, and it isn’t any of us mere humans of planet earth. Lamentations 3:37-38 reads as follows:

NLT – “Who can command things to happen without the Lord’s permission? Does not the Most High send both calamity and good?”

Who is in control of your life? Is it you with your sense of “free will?” Or, do we believe the text, which is that nothing takes place without the consent of the Lord?

Earlier in this thread, I posited a question to a co-member who was in disagreement with the apparent arguments presented with this question: “Are you in control of your life, or do you see the evidence of the Power and Plan of God in your life?” As usual, there was no reply. If we deny that God is in control of our lives, how can we say that God is in control (of anything at all?) How can the Lord be in control of a person if said person claims control over him or herself? How can the Lord be in control of humanity if humanity chooses its ways?

The Bible is clear: God controls events according to His prewritten, Holy Plan. This Plan is specific to each person whom the Lord gives to Christ to receive not only Purification but Eternal Life.

John 6:65 NLT – “Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”

But back to Lamentations: Verses 37 through 39 seem to be interjected out of thin air. For, in the middle of chapter 3, we have this little segment that indicates that the root of all circumstances are rooted in the Power and Control of the Lord. This chapter shows us that the Lord decrees the things we speak (and do). Now, if this is true, which includes both adversity and good (coming from the Mouth of the Lord), does it make sense that we would complain? Think about it: if we were to see the complete set of Plans for each of our lives, we would acknowledge how the Lord’s Discipline assists in the development of our Understanding, Knowledge, and Wisdom. If we could see the entire set of Holy Plans for our lives, we would realize that there is no reason to complain . . . even when we sin and suffer the consequences. With a complete understanding of these Plans for our lives, our Hearts would be relieved to see the result of our Faith, which is Eternal Life and all that it entails. If we could fully understand that “Heaven” is a place of complete, total, and utter Love, would we fear death and what awaits? Moreover, this is a Love that knows nothing of sin, hardship, turmoil, or grief (of any form). To feel completely and utterly free of anything related to evil is the most remarkable feeling one could ever have.

So again, in the middle of chapter 3, we find this little caveat explanation of how things work: because we do and speak as the Lord decrees, what use is there for complaint? If we understand the Plan of God, why should we complain about it? What would complaining accomplish? Will our disagreement change His Plan for our lives? Is our human “will” somehow more powerful and potent than God’s Will? Of course not, for the Lord grants His Grace and Mercy to anyone He so chooses.

Exodus 33:19 NLT – “The LORD replied, “I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will call out my name, Yahweh, before you. For I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”

My first post on this site.

I was thinking about my college days and the idea of Calvinism popped into my head. So, I started looking online and I found this site. I look around and found this discussion.

And this discussion makes me sad.

That is all.

Welcome!

Welcome to CC.

Why does this thread make you sad? All that I am doing is bringing forth many stories and passages that very few dare to consider. I think that this is a good thing; not something that ought to make a person sad.

Honestly, I don't feel that this has been the best example of how Christians should handle disagreements. I definitely have my opinion on this topic but I would in way feel comfortable sharing it in this thread. And that makes me sad.

I remember in one of my classes where the professor was talking about how much we, all the different branches and denominations, have in common. But instead of focusing on that and the actual message of the Bible, the good news, we instead focus on arguing over our differences. His actual phrase was, "we just spend our time beating each other up with our Bibles."

I appreciate all that you wrote. And, I hope that you found that I have done my best to dislodge the silly arguments. When readers refuse to answer questions that directly relate to the topic, and when the conversation turns sour, I do my utmost best to back out of the conversation, even if that means that I must block them to prevent further arguments.

I also hope that you found that I ride the fence on the concept of "free will." This is a concept that puzzles me, particularly after reading the Bible. Throughout this incredible book, we find that the Lord has remarkable control over both living and non-living matter. This fact poses as a severe problem to the idea that we freely choose. Therefore, I am sharing those passages that show the utter Power and control of the Lord over all of His creation. Obviously, not many agree with what I am offering. That said, I am planning on sharing the remaining passages that I have collected (over the years) that outline the Power of God and how that Power poses a threat to the idea of "free will."

What I am offering should not offend anyone. What I am offering should not stimulate the desire to fight and argue. Certainly, that is not my mindset. I would LOVE to have people share their ideas, but I do not entertain disrespectful posts, as they do not personify the True Christian Spirit. Therefore, I would really appreciate hearing your thoughts on the matter, as your thoughts may persuade me to believe one way or the other. My mind is open to all ideas and possibilities, but it is definitely closed to disrespectful communications. Above all things, we must Love each other. And when we Love each other, we demonstrate the Power of God and His Indwelling Spirit.

Lastly, I do not know what John Calvin believes nor do I care. Therefore, there is no need for anyone to ever mention his name again. I read the Bible; I study the Bible, and that has nothing to do with John Calvin.

Do you think doctrinal differences aren't worth discussing, even debating?

And just how much real unity is there among evangelicals? There isn't agreement even on what the gospel is/means.

Believers cn have a lot of questions about what the Bible means by what it says. How do they get answers if discussion/debates don't occur?

Of course discussions are great. But, like I find on almost all internet discussion forums, discussions get kind of ugly. People become disrespectful, sometimes shutting out ideas that they disagree with. Maybe that's just the nature of being anonymous on the internet.

I'll post my stance on the topic of free will. I'm not going to post verses because it will most likely be obvious where I get my thoughts.

First, for me, when I say free will I mean the exact same as free choice. So the question is, did God give us the ability to make our own choices, including choosing Jesus as our Savior? And for me the answer is 100% yes, we have free will or freedom to make choices.

The idea that some are predestined to go to Heaven but others are predestined to go to hell just doesn't fit my understanding of God. God wants all of us, he wants us all to turn to him, he doesn't want to lose a single one of us. As somebody told me once, if I was the only person on the planet, Jesus would have still died on the cross, just for me. He loves me that much. So the idea that God chose some of us to go one way and others to go the other just doesn't make sense.

And if some of us were the chosen few, well that would definitely seem to be something to brag about but I don't think we're supposed to brag about this, it's a gift that we had nothing to do with. And it is a gift available to all, not just a few.

God, of course, has the power to force any of us to do anything but I don't think that's what is happening with this. I feel he wants us to make the choice ourselves.

I think when we as Christian's discuss things like this, we should remember we're a family. When we push each other away and refuse to even talk to each other, it's just not putting ourselves in the best light.

By the way, I am impressed with the knowledge I see on this site.

Thank you for your input. I really do appreciate it.

Question: Do you believe there is a Biblical error (or translation error) when David said that God controlled his destiny?

Job 23:13-17 NLT - "But once he has made his decision, who can change his mind? Whatever he wants to do, he does. So he will do to me whatever he has planned. He controls my destiny. No wonder I am so terrified in his presence. When I think of it, terror grips me. God has made me sick at heart; the Almighty has terrified me. Darkness is all around me; thick, impenetrable darkness is everywhere."

Imagine what David would have thought of a Cell Phone.
He probably would have thought it was God.

So, what you have to do, is not get carried away with trying to filter all bible verses through your dark lens of Hyper Calvinism.

Stay away from that, as that is some serious demonic deception.

I think Job is a very unique character. There is no way I could ever think of comparing my faith to his. When he speaks of God controlling him, I don't think God is literally controlling him. I think he is so devout, so committed to following the wishes of God that it appears to be the same as control. I could only imagine being that devout.

Question:

How could a God that is not willing for any to perish, a God that wants everyone to come to repentance, be the same God that predetermined that some would repent and others would not? If we can't make our own choices, if God has already made our choices, then he has decided some will turn away. In fact, he would then be the reason we are committing sin because he is controlling everything and making our decisions for us. That does not sound like our God to me.

The only way He "predetermine" is that He is omniscient and has always known who would believe and who wouldn't believe.

God has never caused anyone to either believe or reject. That is a horrible myth.

And that would mean man is a puppet and God is a puppetmaster.

Exactly!

I'm sorry, but I have no idea of what you're talking about.

I hear you. Thanks for catching that it was Job and not David that the text points to.

I don't believe that Job was "puffing" when he stated that the Lord controls his destiny. Having read Job many times, I didn't find him to be an exaggerator.

Job 12:23-25He strips kings of understanding
and leaves them wandering in a pathless wasteland
Job 14:05A person's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed
Job 17:04You have closed their minds to understanding
Job 23:13-17Whatever he wants to do, he does. So he will do to me whatever he has planned. He controls my destiny.
Job 42:02no plan of yours can be thwarted

The language remains just as unusual, and he seems rather sober-minded.

A God that chose me to Eternal Life. I am so thankful!!!

The God that I serve is one that can do anything, including giving us this current life and a future Heavenly Life. I would never serve a God that couldn't control anything. That'd be like following Joseph Smith.

I serve the most Powerful God I could find.

How many are there?

The Bible says there is one God but many gods. I found the Only God.

Day 241 offers us a conclusive argument for possessing minds that are limited in the ability to choose to do what is good and right. Ezekiel 11:17-20 declares perfectly the Redeeming act that relieves a person from the Adamic Curse, the Curse that causes confusion.

Ezekiel 11:17-20 CSB - “Therefore say, ‘This is what the Lord GOD says: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.’ “When they arrive there, they will remove all its abhorrent acts and detestable practices from it. “I will give them integrity of heart and put a new spirit within them; I will remove their heart of stone from their bodies and give them a heart of flesh, “so that they will follow my statutes, keep my ordinances, and practice them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.”

The underlined words “so that” denote that giving the Israelites a new Heart and Spirit has an effect that results in obedience. Verses 19 and 20 prove that until a person has received this Spiritual Circumcision, they are limited in their ability to choose to obey. Why would a person be limited in their ability to choose to follow and obey the Lord? Because all people are born and taken captive by the Devil to do his will.

2 Timothy 2:25b & 26 NKJV – “. . . if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.”

A person who is held captive by the Devil is considered Spiritually dead, but it is the Circumcision of Christ that causes a person to become alive . . . regenerated . . . reborn. And in conjunction with this Spiritual Circumcision of the Sinful Nature, a person is granted the ability to repent.

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT – “When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature.” ... 13 “You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.”

The Sinful Nature must be cut away by Jesus, permanently removed from the heart. The Sinful Nature is the crux of our problem, for it is the motivator of our thoughts which ultimately lead to actions. As we will see below, uncircumcised hearts produce bad fruit, while Circumcised Hearts produce good fruit.

Luke 6:43-45 NLT - “A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. A tree is identified by its fruit. Figs are never gathered from thornbushes, and grapes are not picked from bramble bushes. A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. What you say flows from what is in your heart.”

An uncircumcised heart (which remains under the Curse of the Lord) does not possess the free choice to do or say what is right . . . that person is predisposed to doing evil. However, the heart that Christ has circumcised escapes the grip and Power of Satan and is subsequently enabled to obey and do what is right.

2 Peter 1:4 NLT – “And because of his glory and excellence, he has given us great and precious promises. These are the promises that enable you to share his divine nature and escape the world’s corruption caused by human desires.”

The Promise is the same promise established in Abraham, our Father of Faith. This is the Holy Promise of Spiritual Circumcision, and this Circumcision is the enabling act that renders a Child of God to reflect the Glory of God more and more through that Child’s life.

The Lord’s deliverance of a new Heart and Spirit does not change our physical presence; instead, it changes our psychological reality. We mature, having been given the Mind of Christ, and the Mind of Christ is one where they are held captive by the Holy Spirit to do the will of God our Father.