"The rich man And Lazarus..."
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FreeGrace2 said:
Further, Jesus told the believing thief on the cross that he would be WITH Jesus that day in Paradise! Which is where Abraham was.
Yes, I know that.
I think your point is just pointless. Because when Jesus told the thief that, it WOULD BE future when the thief would be with Jesus.
[QUOT4E]Second problem is your understanding of the word Paradise; it means a lush garden.[/QUOTE]
So Jesus was just interested in planting some flowers some day, with the thief, huh. That is absurd.
Here's the deal though. Yes, the thief did know that Jesus was Messiah and would have a FUTURE reign on earth. Yet, Jesus told him that he would be with Jesus "today". I don't care a bit about where you put a comma, since the Greeks didn't even use them.
So just read the sentence without any comma and it becomes clear what Jesus meant.
I'm real curious what you think Jesus was referring to by "Paradise"?
Further, Jesus told the believing thief on the cross that he would be WITH Jesus that day in Paradise! Which is where Abraham was.
Yes, I know that.
I think your point is just pointless. Because when Jesus told the thief that, it WOULD BE future when the thief would be with Jesus.
[QUOT4E]Second problem is your understanding of the word Paradise; it means a lush garden.[/QUOTE]
So Jesus was just interested in planting some flowers some day, with the thief, huh. That is absurd.
Here's the deal though. Yes, the thief did know that Jesus was Messiah and would have a FUTURE reign on earth. Yet, Jesus told him that he would be with Jesus "today". I don't care a bit about where you put a comma, since the Greeks didn't even use them.
So just read the sentence without any comma and it becomes clear what Jesus meant.
I'm real curious what you think Jesus was referring to by "Paradise"?
So Jesus was just interested in planting some flowers some day, with the thief, huh. That is absurd.
Here's the deal though. Yes, the thief did know that Jesus was Messiah and would have a FUTURE reign on earth. Yet, Jesus told him that he would be with Jesus "today". I don't care a bit about where you put a comma, since the Greeks didn't even use them.
So just read the sentence without any comma and it becomes clear what Jesus meant.
I'm real curious what you think Jesus was referring to by "Paradise"?[/QUOTE]
I give you grammatical exegesis to your argument and you respond back without a proper rebuttal to what I said (in fact you mock and call it absurd); that isn't how to conduct a conversation towards biblical truth.
Jesus promised the thief on THAT DAY 2,000 years that the thief would be in the Garden (paradeisos) of God. Jesus didn't say he would be in the Garden on that very day.
1. I promise you today (9/20/22), you will be with me in the Garden of God. <- Making the declaration of promise on that day, but the fulfillment of the promise is in the future when Christ comes into His Kingdom (Luke 23:42).
versus
2. I promise you, today (9/20/22) you will be with me in the Garden of God. <- Fulfilling that declaration on that very day in which the promise was made; that is, immediately after death on the cross.
The point is, if you read your OT and your understanding of death is that you are unconscious without knowledge, that is, you are asleep. Then how you understand the thief on the cross passage would be that the thief would be dead and buried in a grave like all others and is awaiting the resurrection so that they may have access to the trees of life in the Garden (paradeisos) of God.
Like all others who have died and are buried and have not ascended to heaven including David:
Acts 2:29-34
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
You also say you want to know what I think Jesus is referring to when he says Paradise; when I literally give you the Greek word and a link to the word on a website so that, you can look at the how the word is used throughout scripture and you can see what the word means and how it is applied. Did you not even read what the word Paradise means?
Let me repeat what I said:
The word Paradise; it means a lush garden.
G3857 matches the Greek παράδεισος (paradeisos),
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3857/kjv/tr/0-1/
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3857/lxx/lxx/0-1/
Gen2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden (paradeisos) eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Gen 3:22-24
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden (paradeisos) of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden (paradeisos) of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
Ez 28:13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden (paradeisos) of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Isaiah 51:3
καὶ σὲ νῦν παρακαλέσω Σιων καὶ παρεκάλεσα πάντα τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς καὶ θήσω τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς ὡς παράδεισον G3857 κυρίου εὐφροσύνην καὶ ἀγαλλίαμα εὑρήσουσιν ἐν αὐτῇ ἐξομολόγησιν καὶ φωνὴν αἰνέσεως
Isaiah 51:3
3 For the Lord will comfort Zion (Jerusaelm),
He will comfort all her waste places;
He will make her wilderness like Eden,
And her desert like the garden of the Lord;
Joy and gladness will be found in it,
Thanksgiving and the voice of melody.
Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise (paradesisos) of God.
What was the Garden (paradesios) of God that every Jew including Jesus knew about, read your OT; it's clear as day. The Garden of God is in the future kingdom when He sets up his throne in Jerusalem (Zion). We cannot have access to it UNITL He returns and all are resurrected, therefore, the thief is not in the Garden (paradesisos) of God yet, because Christ has not yet returned.
The tree of life was here on earth in which Adam was kicked out from least he eat and live forever (Gen 3:22-24). The paradise (Garden) of God is in the future Kingdom where it grows 12 fruits, one for each month in Jerusalem (Ez 47:1-12 ->Rev 22:1-3). We are dependent on eating from the tree of life in order to live forever; just like Adam was, but he was kicked out and then saw death.
To have access to the tree of life which is in the Garden (paradesisos) of God, we must be resurrected from the dead and given access to it, which if we are in Christ; He will give use access to it (Rev 2:7).
Bible translator do a disservice of transliterating the word from paradesisos (Greek) to Paradise (English) instead of translating the meaning of the word from paradesisos (which mean a garden) to its equivalent Garden (English).
If they actually translated the word instead of transliterating it, Luke would read:
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in the Garden.”
or in Revelation 2:7:
7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Garden of God.” ’
Here's the deal though. Yes, the thief did know that Jesus was Messiah and would have a FUTURE reign on earth. Yet, Jesus told him that he would be with Jesus "today". I don't care a bit about where you put a comma, since the Greeks didn't even use them.
So just read the sentence without any comma and it becomes clear what Jesus meant.
I'm real curious what you think Jesus was referring to by "Paradise"?[/QUOTE]
I give you grammatical exegesis to your argument and you respond back without a proper rebuttal to what I said (in fact you mock and call it absurd); that isn't how to conduct a conversation towards biblical truth.
Jesus promised the thief on THAT DAY 2,000 years that the thief would be in the Garden (paradeisos) of God. Jesus didn't say he would be in the Garden on that very day.
1. I promise you today (9/20/22), you will be with me in the Garden of God. <- Making the declaration of promise on that day, but the fulfillment of the promise is in the future when Christ comes into His Kingdom (Luke 23:42).
versus
2. I promise you, today (9/20/22) you will be with me in the Garden of God. <- Fulfilling that declaration on that very day in which the promise was made; that is, immediately after death on the cross.
The point is, if you read your OT and your understanding of death is that you are unconscious without knowledge, that is, you are asleep. Then how you understand the thief on the cross passage would be that the thief would be dead and buried in a grave like all others and is awaiting the resurrection so that they may have access to the trees of life in the Garden (paradeisos) of God.
Like all others who have died and are buried and have not ascended to heaven including David:
Acts 2:29-34
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
You also say you want to know what I think Jesus is referring to when he says Paradise; when I literally give you the Greek word and a link to the word on a website so that, you can look at the how the word is used throughout scripture and you can see what the word means and how it is applied. Did you not even read what the word Paradise means?
Let me repeat what I said:
The word Paradise; it means a lush garden.
G3857 matches the Greek παράδεισος (paradeisos),
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3857/kjv/tr/0-1/
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3857/lxx/lxx/0-1/
Gen2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden (paradeisos) eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Gen 3:22-24
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden (paradeisos) of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden (paradeisos) of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
Ez 28:13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden (paradeisos) of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Isaiah 51:3
καὶ σὲ νῦν παρακαλέσω Σιων καὶ παρεκάλεσα πάντα τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς καὶ θήσω τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς ὡς παράδεισον G3857 κυρίου εὐφροσύνην καὶ ἀγαλλίαμα εὑρήσουσιν ἐν αὐτῇ ἐξομολόγησιν καὶ φωνὴν αἰνέσεως
Isaiah 51:3
3 For the Lord will comfort Zion (Jerusaelm),
He will comfort all her waste places;
He will make her wilderness like Eden,
And her desert like the garden of the Lord;
Joy and gladness will be found in it,
Thanksgiving and the voice of melody.
Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise (paradesisos) of God.
What was the Garden (paradesios) of God that every Jew including Jesus knew about, read your OT; it's clear as day. The Garden of God is in the future kingdom when He sets up his throne in Jerusalem (Zion). We cannot have access to it UNITL He returns and all are resurrected, therefore, the thief is not in the Garden (paradesisos) of God yet, because Christ has not yet returned.
The tree of life was here on earth in which Adam was kicked out from least he eat and live forever (Gen 3:22-24). The paradise (Garden) of God is in the future Kingdom where it grows 12 fruits, one for each month in Jerusalem (Ez 47:1-12 ->Rev 22:1-3). We are dependent on eating from the tree of life in order to live forever; just like Adam was, but he was kicked out and then saw death.
To have access to the tree of life which is in the Garden (paradesisos) of God, we must be resurrected from the dead and given access to it, which if we are in Christ; He will give use access to it (Rev 2:7).
Bible translator do a disservice of transliterating the word from paradesisos (Greek) to Paradise (English) instead of translating the meaning of the word from paradesisos (which mean a garden) to its equivalent Garden (English).
If they actually translated the word instead of transliterating it, Luke would read:
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in the Garden.”
or in Revelation 2:7:
7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Garden of God.” ’
The parable was written to a Jewish audience and was a prophesy of the coming destruction Jerusalem and the Levitical priesthood:
A. An allegory about Jesus (Lazarus) and the destruction of Jerusalem & Priesthood (The Rich Man)
1. All of the elements of this allegory/parable are drawn from four OT prophecies, all of which prophesy the destruction of Jerusalem & the priesthood in AD70.
a. Deut. 31:28-30; 32:5,15-29
b. Isaiah 28:1-19; 29:1-14
c. Isaiah 50:6-11
d. Mal. 1:6 – 3:5
B. The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)
1. A allegory/parable, not literal history. One of the earliest manuscripts, Codex Bezae (5th century, Italy), begins vs. 19 as follows: Ειπεν δέ και ετεραν παραβολην – "But He spoke also another parable, ..."
a. The last in a series of parables spoken to the Jewish leadership. (compare Lk. 16:1)
2. The “Rich Man” – the apostate Jewish Priesthood – Levites
a. Justified themselves (Luke 16:15 / Mal. 1:6; 2:14,17; 3:8,13)
b. Improperly divorced wives and remarried (Luke 16:18 / Mal. 2:13-16)
c. “Lovers of money” (Luke 16:14) who had “robbed God” (Mal. 3:8-10).
d. Dressed in purple and fine linen
1. “Purple” was the clothing of kings (Mark 15:17).
2. “Fine linen” was the clothing of priests (Ex. 39:27-29).
3. The Hasmonean Dynasty (from the Maccabees) were “priest-kings,” and continued to rule under Herod the Great.
3. “Lazarus” – Jesus Christ, Greek form of the Hebrew “E’leazar,” means “God is My Help.”
a. A term applied to Jesus several times: (Psalm 22:16-19; Psalm 40:6-17)
b. The name “Lazarus” was drawn directly from Isaiah’s prophecy of Jesus and the destruction of the Levitical priesthood (Isaiah 50:6-7).
4. He came as a “poor beggar,” born in a stable, homeless, dependent on support of others.
a. Luke 9:58; 2 Cor. 8:9
5. Full of “sores” – bearing our diseases and infirmities (Matt. 8:16-17; Isaiah 53:4-5 LXX)
6. The “dogs” – the Gentiles (Matt. 15:22-28)
7. Desiring to eat the crumbs (as a Man, humble food)
8. The beggar died – the crucifixion of Christ.
9. Carried by the angels – His bodily ascension into heaven (Acts 1:9-11, cf. Matt. 24:31)
10. Abraham’s Bosom – The ‘Seed’ of the Abrahamic Covenant
a. A term used in Gen. 16:5 for Abraham’s intimacy with his wife to produce an heir.
b. Lazarus in “Abraham’s bosom” shows that He (Jesus) is the promised Seed.
11. The rich man died afterwards – the destruction of Jerusalem 40 years later in AD 70
a. Priesthood demolished – Deut. 32:19-22; Isaiah 28-29; Isaiah 50:11; Mal. 1:6 – 3:12
12. “In Hades” – refers to the priesthood in exile from the Land & Temple. a. “Hades” is the “grave” of humanity (Num. 16:33; 1 Kings 2:9; Ezek. 32:27; 1 Cor. 15:55).
b. The unfaithful priesthood punished in “Hades” (Deut. 32:19-22; Isa. 28:15,18; 29:4).
13. Tormented in the flames – God’s wrath (Deut. 32:19-22; Isa. 50:11; Mal. 3:2-3).
14. Send Lazarus to bring relief – Send the Messiah to restore Israel (Hosannah – “save now”)
15. The Great Gulf – the blindness imposed on Israel (Isa. 6:9-13; Matt. 13:10-15; Rom. 11:7-10).
16. Five Brothers – the other 5 tribes of Israel from the same mother – Leah
a. Levi had 5 brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun (Gen. 30).
17. If they will not hear Moses, they will not hear the One who rose from the dead – Jesus.
a. No sign would be given to that wicked generation (Mark 8:11-12). (sign of Johan)
b. Jesus refused to show Himself resurrected to unbelievers (Jn. 14:19-20; 1 Cor. 15:3-8)
A. An allegory about Jesus (Lazarus) and the destruction of Jerusalem & Priesthood (The Rich Man)
1. All of the elements of this allegory/parable are drawn from four OT prophecies, all of which prophesy the destruction of Jerusalem & the priesthood in AD70.
a. Deut. 31:28-30; 32:5,15-29
b. Isaiah 28:1-19; 29:1-14
c. Isaiah 50:6-11
d. Mal. 1:6 – 3:5
B. The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)
1. A allegory/parable, not literal history. One of the earliest manuscripts, Codex Bezae (5th century, Italy), begins vs. 19 as follows: Ειπεν δέ και ετεραν παραβολην – "But He spoke also another parable, ..."
a. The last in a series of parables spoken to the Jewish leadership. (compare Lk. 16:1)
2. The “Rich Man” – the apostate Jewish Priesthood – Levites
a. Justified themselves (Luke 16:15 / Mal. 1:6; 2:14,17; 3:8,13)
b. Improperly divorced wives and remarried (Luke 16:18 / Mal. 2:13-16)
c. “Lovers of money” (Luke 16:14) who had “robbed God” (Mal. 3:8-10).
d. Dressed in purple and fine linen
1. “Purple” was the clothing of kings (Mark 15:17).
2. “Fine linen” was the clothing of priests (Ex. 39:27-29).
3. The Hasmonean Dynasty (from the Maccabees) were “priest-kings,” and continued to rule under Herod the Great.
3. “Lazarus” – Jesus Christ, Greek form of the Hebrew “E’leazar,” means “God is My Help.”
a. A term applied to Jesus several times: (Psalm 22:16-19; Psalm 40:6-17)
b. The name “Lazarus” was drawn directly from Isaiah’s prophecy of Jesus and the destruction of the Levitical priesthood (Isaiah 50:6-7).
4. He came as a “poor beggar,” born in a stable, homeless, dependent on support of others.
a. Luke 9:58; 2 Cor. 8:9
5. Full of “sores” – bearing our diseases and infirmities (Matt. 8:16-17; Isaiah 53:4-5 LXX)
6. The “dogs” – the Gentiles (Matt. 15:22-28)
7. Desiring to eat the crumbs (as a Man, humble food)
8. The beggar died – the crucifixion of Christ.
9. Carried by the angels – His bodily ascension into heaven (Acts 1:9-11, cf. Matt. 24:31)
10. Abraham’s Bosom – The ‘Seed’ of the Abrahamic Covenant
a. A term used in Gen. 16:5 for Abraham’s intimacy with his wife to produce an heir.
b. Lazarus in “Abraham’s bosom” shows that He (Jesus) is the promised Seed.
11. The rich man died afterwards – the destruction of Jerusalem 40 years later in AD 70
a. Priesthood demolished – Deut. 32:19-22; Isaiah 28-29; Isaiah 50:11; Mal. 1:6 – 3:12
12. “In Hades” – refers to the priesthood in exile from the Land & Temple. a. “Hades” is the “grave” of humanity (Num. 16:33; 1 Kings 2:9; Ezek. 32:27; 1 Cor. 15:55).
b. The unfaithful priesthood punished in “Hades” (Deut. 32:19-22; Isa. 28:15,18; 29:4).
13. Tormented in the flames – God’s wrath (Deut. 32:19-22; Isa. 50:11; Mal. 3:2-3).
14. Send Lazarus to bring relief – Send the Messiah to restore Israel (Hosannah – “save now”)
15. The Great Gulf – the blindness imposed on Israel (Isa. 6:9-13; Matt. 13:10-15; Rom. 11:7-10).
16. Five Brothers – the other 5 tribes of Israel from the same mother – Leah
a. Levi had 5 brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun (Gen. 30).
17. If they will not hear Moses, they will not hear the One who rose from the dead – Jesus.
a. No sign would be given to that wicked generation (Mark 8:11-12). (sign of Johan)
b. Jesus refused to show Himself resurrected to unbelievers (Jn. 14:19-20; 1 Cor. 15:3-8)
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If the narrative doesn't fit you must acquit.
Jesus clearly told the Pharisees that their father is the devil.
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
If this rich man is a picture or real Pharisee in hell, the grave, whatever. Abraham would have said I'm not your father.
The unsaved will never ask for mercy.
Jesus clearly told the Pharisees that their father is the devil.
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
If this rich man is a picture or real Pharisee in hell, the grave, whatever. Abraham would have said I'm not your father.
The unsaved will never ask for mercy.
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I said:
"So Jesus was just interested in planting some flowers some day, with the thief, huh. That is absurd.
Here's the deal though. Yes, the thief did know that Jesus was Messiah and would have a FUTURE reign on earth. Yet, Jesus told him that he would be with Jesus "today". I don't care a bit about where you put a comma, since the Greeks didn't even use them.
So just read the sentence without any comma and it becomes clear what Jesus meant.
I'm real curious what you think Jesus was referring to by "Paradise"?"
I did lots more. I showed WHY it was absurd. Don't you read all of my posts?
Who says you have truth? I showed why your exegesis is absurd. We DON'T know where Dr Luke meant the pause to be, because he didn't use grammatical marks. Doesn't matter. The natural reading is pausing after "Assuredly I say to you". Why would Jesus make a point of the day He was saying that? Which is what your preferred way is.
What we KNOW is that Jesus WENT to Paradise THAT DAY. You can't argue otherwise. So it only makes perfect sense that there would be a comma after "you" in the phrase "assuredly I say to you".
Jesus said "with ME". Are you not paying attention?
Not even close to reality.
versus
2. I promise you, today (9/20/22) you will be with me in the Garden of God. <- Fulfilling that declaration on that very day in which the promise was made; that is, immediately after death on the cross.[/QUOTE]
This makes more sense.
OK, so you are one of the "soul sleepers". I reject that because the Bible uses "sleep" for physical death. iow, the body isn't conscious.
Read John 11 and the other Lazarus. Jesus used "sleep" for physical death. Has nothing to do with souls sleeping.
Since you are one of the "soul sleepers", possibly an SDA, there is no reason to continue this discussion.
All that will happen is that you will insist all souls sleep at physical death, and that without any evidence, while I will SHOW you that souls are quite conscious after physical death.
"So Jesus was just interested in planting some flowers some day, with the thief, huh. That is absurd.
Here's the deal though. Yes, the thief did know that Jesus was Messiah and would have a FUTURE reign on earth. Yet, Jesus told him that he would be with Jesus "today". I don't care a bit about where you put a comma, since the Greeks didn't even use them.
So just read the sentence without any comma and it becomes clear what Jesus meant.
I'm real curious what you think Jesus was referring to by "Paradise"?"
I did lots more. I showed WHY it was absurd. Don't you read all of my posts?
Who says you have truth? I showed why your exegesis is absurd. We DON'T know where Dr Luke meant the pause to be, because he didn't use grammatical marks. Doesn't matter. The natural reading is pausing after "Assuredly I say to you". Why would Jesus make a point of the day He was saying that? Which is what your preferred way is.
What we KNOW is that Jesus WENT to Paradise THAT DAY. You can't argue otherwise. So it only makes perfect sense that there would be a comma after "you" in the phrase "assuredly I say to you".
Jesus said "with ME". Are you not paying attention?
Not even close to reality.
versus
2. I promise you, today (9/20/22) you will be with me in the Garden of God. <- Fulfilling that declaration on that very day in which the promise was made; that is, immediately after death on the cross.[/QUOTE]
This makes more sense.
OK, so you are one of the "soul sleepers". I reject that because the Bible uses "sleep" for physical death. iow, the body isn't conscious.
Read John 11 and the other Lazarus. Jesus used "sleep" for physical death. Has nothing to do with souls sleeping.
Since you are one of the "soul sleepers", possibly an SDA, there is no reason to continue this discussion.
All that will happen is that you will insist all souls sleep at physical death, and that without any evidence, while I will SHOW you that souls are quite conscious after physical death.
FreeGrace2 said:
And there is no spiritual or moral lesson for any living person to follow in the account of Laz and the rich man
Unless you can explain what the moral or spiritual lesson is.
OK. I guess you haven't bothered reading the account then. This isn't even close to anything that Jesus spoke about.
He spoke about 2 real human beings who died. One was saved and went to Paradise, which He called Abraham's Bosom, and the unsaved rich man went to the same Hades but another compartment called torments. And the rich man (though dead physically) had a conversation with another real man, also dead, Abraham, who conversed back to the rich man.
Jesus gave us a glimple of the afterlife in the OT. But of course you will protest because of your unbiblical view about soul sleep.
And there is no spiritual or moral lesson for any living person to follow in the account of Laz and the rich man
Unless you can explain what the moral or spiritual lesson is.
OK. I guess you haven't bothered reading the account then. This isn't even close to anything that Jesus spoke about.
He spoke about 2 real human beings who died. One was saved and went to Paradise, which He called Abraham's Bosom, and the unsaved rich man went to the same Hades but another compartment called torments. And the rich man (though dead physically) had a conversation with another real man, also dead, Abraham, who conversed back to the rich man.
Jesus gave us a glimple of the afterlife in the OT. But of course you will protest because of your unbiblical view about soul sleep.
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
God told me souls die....not the devil.
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No it's definitely not a parable. I proved it wasn't.
Actually, I have proved the Rich Man and Lazarus is a Parable or the Bible stands in contradiction of itself. I.e., there is no mention of a place of torment in Moses or the Prophets for the rich man and his family to have been aware of.
Since the Bible is error free, it's definitely a parable. You shouldn't be promoting otherwise.
Actually, I have proved the Rich Man and Lazarus is a Parable or the Bible stands in contradiction of itself. I.e., there is no mention of a place of torment in Moses or the Prophets for the rich man and his family to have been aware of.
Since the Bible is error free, it's definitely a parable. You shouldn't be promoting otherwise.
The rich man and Lazarus is a parable.
Right before the rich man and Lazarus story the Pharisees were listening.
Luke 16:14
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Jesus spoke to the Pharisees.
Luke 16:15
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Matthew 13:34
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.
Runningman did you point this out already?
Right before the rich man and Lazarus story the Pharisees were listening.
Luke 16:14
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Jesus spoke to the Pharisees.
Luke 16:15
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Matthew 13:34
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.
Runningman did you point this out already?