Jesus' presence in the Old Testament

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R

Runningman

Banned
#1
Mar 4, 2020
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#1
Ever wondered where and what Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, was doing during the Old Testament times?

Some of the New Testament authors preceisly identify who the only begotten Son of God was interacting with, who He was revealing Himself to, and some of the things He was doing. This is a start, but maybe there are more.

John 8:56-59
56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

John 12:40,41
40“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”
41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3They all ate the same spiritual food
4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Hebrews 11:24-26
24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter.
25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.
26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.

Jude 1:4,5
4For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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#2
Jul 2, 2011
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#2
Let us not forget the three in the fire in Babylonia, and the Fourth..............
 
The_Watchers_2017

The_Watchers_2017

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#3
Jun 20, 2022
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#3
since the Prophets, the Hebrews have been looking for the Coming Messiah.

so it's ironic that the Messiah was already known to them as Elohim, I AM, YHWH, Yahweh, LORD, God, and many other Titles.

the Messiah walked in the Garden with Adam/Eve
the Messiah took up Enoch
the Messiah Spoke to Noah
the Messiah was Abraham's High Priest
the Messiah ate with Abraham before destroying Sodom
the Messiah blessed the Wells of Isaac
the Messiah wrestled with Jacob/Israel
the Messiah interpreted Josephs' dreams
the Messiah made multiple appearances to Moses as Burning Bush, Finger and Backside of God, Cloud by day/Fire by night
so many Appearances by the Messiah before the WORD ever was the Messiah.
He even created a physical flesh body to come as the Son of God

from Genesis to Revelation it is ALL about the Messiah!
 
B

bluto

Senior Member
#4
Aug 4, 2016
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#4
Runningman said:
Ever wondered where and what Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, was doing during the Old Testament times?

Some of the New Testament authors preceisly identify who the only begotten Son of God was interacting with, who He was revealing Himself to, and some of the things He was doing. This is a start, but maybe there are more.

John 8:56-59
56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

John 12:40,41
40“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”
41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3They all ate the same spiritual food
4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Hebrews 11:24-26
24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter.
25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.
26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.

Jude 1:4,5
4For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
Click to expand...
Where is your evidence or proof that Jesus pre-existed His incarnation by appearing in the Old Testament? I read the other thread about the angel of the Lord being Jesus but God uses angels to speak and do things on His behalf. God uses angels as messengers and in fact He uses men as messengers, prophets. So again, where is the proof that Jesus is in the OT or that he is not an actual angel, could he be Michael the arc angel? At Acts 7:30 Stephen said, "And after forty years had passed AN ANGEL appeared to him/Moses in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning bush.

Kind Regards,
bluto
 
A

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
#5
Aug 18, 2021
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#5
Jesus wasn't present, in human form, on the earth until he was born at Bethlehem. But He was being prophesied about in the Old Testament:

Jesus told the religious leaders of His day, “If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.” John 5

And, after His resurrection, He joined two of His disciples on the road to emmaus.

And he said to them, “Oh, how foolish you are! How slow of heart to believe all that the prophets spoke!
Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer* these things and enter into his glory?”
Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#6
Jul 31, 2013
36,675
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113
#6
Runningman said:
Ever wondered where and what Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, was doing during the Old Testament times?

Some of the New Testament authors preceisly identify who the only begotten Son of God was interacting with, who He was revealing Himself to, and some of the things He was doing. This is a start, but maybe there are more.

John 8:56-59
56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

John 12:40,41
40“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”
41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3They all ate the same spiritual food
4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Hebrews 11:24-26
24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter.
25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.
26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.

Jude 1:4,5
4For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
Click to expand...
no man has seen the Father at any time - John 1:18, c.f.e. 6:46

so guess Who this is:

And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day,
and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
(Genesis 3:8)
​
even this:

Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
(Genesis 5:24)
​
 
posthuman

posthuman

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#7
Jul 31, 2013
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#7
bluto said:
Where is your evidence or proof that Jesus pre-existed His incarnation by appearing in the Old Testament? I read the other thread about the angel of the Lord being Jesus but God uses angels to speak and do things on His behalf. God uses angels as messengers and in fact He uses men as messengers, prophets. So again, where is the proof that Jesus is in the OT or that he is not an actual angel, could he be Michael the arc angel? At Acts 7:30 Stephen said, "And after forty years had passed AN ANGEL appeared to him/Moses in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning bush.

Kind Regards,
bluto
Click to expand...
here is a place to start:

CHRIST IS GOD omnibus thread
 
B

bluto

Senior Member
#8
Aug 4, 2016
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#8
arthurfleminger said:
Jesus wasn't present, in human form, on the earth until he was born at Bethlehem. But He was being prophesied about in the Old Testament:

Jesus told the religious leaders of His day, “If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.” John 5

And, after His resurrection, He joined two of His disciples on the road to emmaus.

And he said to them, “Oh, how foolish you are! How slow of heart to believe all that the prophets spoke!
Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer* these things and enter into his glory?”
Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures.
Click to expand...
posthuman said:
here is a place to start:

CHRIST IS GOD omnibus thread
Click to expand...
posthuman said:
here is a place to start:

CHRIST IS GOD omnibus thread
Click to expand...
I'm not about to read 98 pages so let me try it this way. The Watchers 2017 wrote this in his list. "

"the Messiah ate with Abraham before destroying Sodom ." Can you please tell me how you came to the conclusion that this was the angel of the Lord or the Messiah Jesus Christ? The reference is Genesis 18.

Kind Regards,
bluto
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#9
Jul 31, 2013
36,675
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#9
bluto said:
I'm not about to read 98 pages so let me try it this way. The Watchers 2017 wrote this in his list. "

"the Messiah ate with Abraham before destroying Sodom ." Can you please tell me how you came to the conclusion that this was the angel of the Lord or the Messiah Jesus Christ? The reference is Genesis 18.

Kind Regards,
bluto
Click to expand...
You'll probably want to listen to the 169 lectures that precede this as well as the 300 hours of the Romans study or you're going to find yourself a bit lost but here goes:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/4292252437699/

If you're looking for 15 words or less to explain one of the most profound mysteries revealed in scripture then I'm afraid I'm hard pressed to give you that kind of fast-food-spirituality convenience. I do not find Christianity to be that kind of belief; rather, God has designed things such that we have to put in time meditating and studying in prayer.

I'll be back soon
 
R

Runningman

Banned
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Mar 4, 2020
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#10
bluto said:
Where is your evidence or proof that Jesus pre-existed His incarnation by appearing in the Old Testament? I read the other thread about the angel of the Lord being Jesus but God uses angels to speak and do things on His behalf. God uses angels as messengers and in fact He uses men as messengers, prophets. So again, where is the proof that Jesus is in the OT or that he is not an actual angel, could he be Michael the arc angel? At Acts 7:30 Stephen said, "And after forty years had passed AN ANGEL appeared to him/Moses in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning bush.

Kind Regards,
bluto
Click to expand...
Good question. I honestly think the verses I provided are proof of the pre-existence of Jesus prior to His incarnation.

Or are you asking if the Old Testament refers to Jesus Yeshua by that name?

As far as Jesus being Michael the archangel goes, I’ve heard of that and still don’t understand it because it doesn’t seem Biblical to me.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#11
Jul 18, 2017
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#11
bluto said:
So again, where is the proof that Jesus is in the OT or that he is not an actual angel, could he be Michael the arc angel?
Click to expand...
There is more than enough proof that (1) Jesus appeared to men again and again in the OT and (2) "the Angel of the LORD" (as opposed to an angel of the LORD) was the pre-incarnate Christ.

As to Jesus appearing to men as a man, see my thread on this little known fact. As to Jesus being "the Angel of the LORD" see every reference in the OT where this "Angel" actually presented Himself as God and was worshipped. The word "angel" literally means messenger, and the Word of God (Christ) was the divine Messenger who was also seen as God. A special Messenger.

We can take the example of Moses at the burning bush (Exodus 3) as one of the best examples:

1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.

THE ANGEL OF THE LORD
2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

THE LORD (YAHWEH), GOD (ELOHIM)
4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

HOLY GROUND
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

THE GOD (ELOHIM) OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

THE LORD (YAHWEH)
7 And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; 8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them. 10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.

GOD (ELOHIM)
11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.

GOD (ELOHIM), THE GOD OF YOUR FATHERS
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

I AM THAT I AM or I AM
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

GOD (ELOHIM), THE LORD GOD (YAHWEH ELOHIM)
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

THE LORD GOD (YAHWEH ELOHIM)
16 Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt: 17 And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey.

THE LORD GOD (YAHWEH ELOHIM) OF THE HEBREWS, THE LORD OUR GOD
18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.

Every Jew should have seen Christ is this passage alone. Particularly when He called Himself "I AM".
 
Mem

Mem

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#13
Sep 23, 2014
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#13
bluto said:
I'm not about to read 98 pages so let me try it this way. The Watchers 2017 wrote this in his list. "

"the Messiah ate with Abraham before destroying Sodom ." Can you please tell me how you came to the conclusion that this was the angel of the Lord or the Messiah Jesus Christ? The reference is Genesis 18.

Kind Regards,
bluto
Click to expand...
I believe this account goes as far as evidencing the Trinity seeing that Chapter 18 begins, "Then the LORD appeared to Abraham by the Oaks of Mamre (The original Hebrew tradition appears, to judge from a textual variation conserved in the Septuagint, to have referred to a single great oak tree, which Josephus called Ogyges.[7])..." Then verse 2 says, "And Abraham looked up and saw three men..." and whenever I see "looked up" in the bible, or "lifted up his eyes," I recall a lesson that this suggests a, using my own wording here, "higher seeing." And in verse 3, Abraham addresses, "My lord..." derived from the Hebrew, Adonai (singular) and I think it peculiar that "They" reply to his request. Although it can effectively be argued that this is the LORD and two angels, going further to Genesis 19 we see the English' rendering of Lot's address to these two angels as, "My lords..." However, if the Hebrew in "Lord of lords" is compared with this particular passage, notice in this instance the original word the singular "adonai" and the plural adonim, is used in Ps 136:3' and Deut 10:17' rendered "Lord of lords."
 
posthuman

posthuman

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#14
Jul 31, 2013
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#14
posthuman said:
You'll probably want to listen to the 169 lectures that precede this as well as the 300 hours of the Romans study or you're going to find yourself a bit lost but here goes:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/4292252437699/

If you're looking for 15 words or less to explain one of the most profound mysteries revealed in scripture then I'm afraid I'm hard pressed to give you that kind of fast-food-spirituality convenience. I do not find Christianity to be that kind of belief; rather, God has designed things such that we have to put in time meditating and studying in prayer.

I'll be back soon
Click to expand...
hello @bluto

my apologies, i have a heavy work schedule and precious little time to spend on the forums these days.

i hope you've at least decided to give the sermon series a listen. serious about you needing to do some background listening to get a bit of footing; he's not-you-average-preacher. in fact he's much more a teacher than preacher. sermons are post-seminary education, all build on each other presuming knowledge taught in previous lectures, and it's pretty much all in Socratic method -- give no answers, simply ask all the right questions. so you're going to have to think on your own, and do an awful lot of thinking. these things take time. years.

in the case that you've rebuffed both against perusing a thread and listening to some audio ((again my apologies; i gave a pretty crass answer in a hurry, directing you to a series of teaching i'm familiar with that IMO ought to answer your objections - but that series is some 500 hours of listening. if you can't spend 3 hours reading a thread for sure you ain't going to spend hundreds listening to someone ramble on about the Bible. my bad. you just are asking me to be ready to given an answer for what i believe, which is just))

let me begin, then, to give you an answer.
Melchizedek shares several key factors with Jesus Christ:
  • both king and priest
  • king of "Salem" -- salaam, peace. Christ is Prince of Peace, King of Kings.
    • specifically, King of "Jerusalem" = Jah Jireh Salaam; Yah provides peace. think about that. this is before Jerusalem is even athe home of the Jews. why is Abraham giving obesience to a pagan Canaanite king ((if He is a pagan king, or Canaanite at all))
    • are Canaanites/Jebusites worshipping the true God?
    • if He isn't a Canaanite/Jebusite who is He?
  • Hebrews calls Him equivalent to Christ - having no beginning or end, neither father nor mother -- which is tacitly, uncreated; eternal -- you can follow a particular herd & explain this away as 'poetic speech' without giving it serious consideration, or you can take it as it is written. Hebrews says there is much more to be taught and said of Him, if not for ears being dull and stomachs being unready for real meat. what does this mean? IMO it means, give it serious, serious consideration.
  • as @Mem points out this account in the text of Genesis is not disconnected from what precedes it and follows it, but intimately intertwined. Abraham has at the very least just had an encounter with the Trinitarian God in person. then he defeats 5 kings who have banded together to overcome perhaps the most powerful city in the world, with a scant three hundred sheepherders, and immediately gives obesience to . . . who? a pagan Canaanite priest? and who else is present? "the king of Sodom" -- but who is the king of Sodom? the king of Sodom dies in Genesis 14:10 --- so who is present here? what does Sodom represent spiritually? who is king of that spiritual representation? and immediately afterwards is Genesis 15. this is not disconnected. this is immediately following these events, that Abraham sees one of the key moments in all of the Bible, the Living God proving he has eternal life and appearing physically as a burning torch and smoking lamp. this is a crucial, immense point in all of scripture.
  • the first mention of bread & wine in all the Bible is found here. Melchizedek brings it ((why?)). the most important mention in the Bible of bread & wine is 100% mirrored in Christ giving His own body and blood, declaring it bread and wine, saying "remember"
at the very least these few points indicate that Melchizedek is an infinitely profound image of Christ.
i think if you can spare the time in your busy life to give it serious reflection you can come to no other defensible position but that He is Christ Himself.

more to follow as my times allow
 
B

bluto

Senior Member
#15
Aug 4, 2016
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#15
Runningman said:
Ever wondered where and what Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, was doing during the Old Testament times?

Some of the New Testament authors preceisly identify who the only begotten Son of God was interacting with, who He was revealing Himself to, and some of the things He was doing. This is a start, but maybe there are more.

John 8:56-59
56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

John 12:40,41
40“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”
41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3They all ate the same spiritual food
4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Hebrews 11:24-26
24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter.
25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.
26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.




Listen Brother, no need to apologize for anything. I'm in the process of posting the following explanation but have not finished yet. I'm a little busy myself and will come back to this later. Rest assured, I know the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. I was playing "Devil's advocate" as explained here:

Okay, it's time to come clean and explain that I was "playing devil's advocate" when I was asking for proof/evidence that Jesus pre-existed His incarnation as the angel of the Lord. My point was to show that just citing verses, (like in this thread by Runningman) does not cut it.



Or for example this statement: "



"THE ANGEL OF THE LORD

2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt."



Please. please understand I am "NOT" picking on anybody. I'm just trying to put in practice 1 Peter 3:15. That is "always be ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence." I like to say, (and this is an old saying), "tell me what you believe and why you believe it." Or to put it another way as it pertains to this subject of Jesus pre-existing as the angel of the Lord, how do you know, where's your proof/evidence?" So when I ask this question Runningman responded, "Good question?" Then you have poster arthurfleminger saying the following: "Jesus wasn't present, in human form, on the earth until he was born at Bethlehem. But He was being prophesied about in the Old Testament:"

Will present evidence/proof later. Keep up the good work.

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
Click to expand...
Posthuman! Please click where it says, "Click to expand."
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#16
Jul 31, 2013
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#16
bluto said:
Posthuman! Please click where it says, "Click to expand."
Click to expand...
it is a difficult thing in a forum setting, and in a modern world where people want instant-answers in bumper-sticker form.
because this takes study and thought and meditation.

we will find no verse that says "this is pre-incarnate Christ" -- what we will find instead, are deep passages with subtle, almsot inexplicable clues that lead us to these things.
it's these things that Christ chided the disciples about on the Emmaus road, and Nicodemus about in John 3 -- you have studied, but you don't know these things?
what things?
deep things, that require near-lifetimes of grasping at to understand, if not for the help of the Spirit - things the prophets and the angels diligently sought and longed to look into, but were elusive to them.
God has designed the Bible this way - such that all of it testifies of Christ, but that testimony is hidden and must be dug up and processed. without quick, easy answers. and it is no accident that Satan has manipulated our world today into a culture that desires 15-word explanations that fit neatly into an image read in 1 second, and that our modern mind is impatient, fickle, and wroth to put in any effort to deep learning.

we just google and pick the top results.
God doesn't work this way.

thank you Bluto =]
you've been instructive, and i failed -- i was curt and rude
 
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