Church Doctrine VS. God's Word

Refusing to believe Jesus is not without consequence. (John 12:48)

• He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

And in the case of water baptism, scripture references that obedience to it in the name of the Lord Jesus is for remission of one's sin in accordance with Jesus' sacrifice. (Acts 2:1-39, Acts 22:16) Jesus' sacrifice made this possible for all of mankind. All have the opportunity to receive what Jesus died to provide, but not all will. For straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and few will find it. But broad is the gate that leads to destruction and many are going that way. (Matthew 7)

Keep in mind that Jesus never said, get baptized after you are saved. He specifically stated, he that believes and is baptized shall be saved:
"...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Obedience to water baptism is an essential part of the gospel message. (Mark 1:1-5, Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

That didn't happen to me. Instead, and with my hair still wet from being dunked, I proceeded to cross the street and steal a bag of rubberbands for my paper-route. I was 12 years old and should have never been baptized. I didn't Truly believe in Jesus . . . at . . . all. Now, if the "church" actually taught Colossians 2:9-15, then and perhaps, I might have understood the Gospel and perhaps I would have Truly Believed in the Work that renders a person to be a True Christian.

That didn't happen to me. Instead, and with my hair still wet from being dunked, I proceeded to cross the street and steal a bag of rubberbands for my paper-route. I was 12 years old and should have never been baptized. I didn't Truly believe in Jesus . . . at . . . all. Now, if the "church" actually taught Colossians 2:9-15, then and perhaps, I might have understood the Gospel and perhaps I would have Truly Believed in the Work that renders a person to be a True Christian.

Ok, maybe read it again. Because it is just a matter of simple reading comprehension.
He took passages that speak about the efficacy of baptism and then he compared them to passages not about baptism and came to the conclusion, (quote) " no baptism needed".
He used passages not about baptism to cancel out the passages about baptism.
Rather than to harmonize those passages.

He also used contrapositive logic on this passage (I'll copy and paste it so it's not changed). "Then you have Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Some will say Jesus said he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved they forget the second part of the verse;He that believeth not shall be damned. Baptism is not involved in being damned so why should it be a requirement for salvation."

He used one half of a statement here and used it to cancel the other half. In some terrible logic. The reason baptism isnt mentioned in the second half pf the statement os because those who dont believe dont get baptized. To harmonize and understand the statement here it is to use simple reading comprehension. Baptism becomes the outcome or product of believing. One who believes would then naturally be baptized and one who does jot believe would therefore not be baptized. And having not believed and subsequently therefore by default also not be baptized is condemned already.

So you use some scripture to cancel out other scripture rather than to harmonize them together. Seems a dangerous approach to scripture to me.

Dirtman: I am sorry that I did not make myself clear and that I made you thank I was putting one part of verse against the other. Here is the passage. Jesus has been risen He is with the 11 and He tells them this:

14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I want to focus on verse 16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; He that believeth not shall be damned. The point I was pointing out in this verse is the second half how come “He that believeth not shall be dammed” baptism is not a requirement to be damned so is it a requirement to be saved? Are you trying to say that if I follow Romans 8:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. That I am not saved. Notice Romans 8 does not have the words baptism, baptized, . . . or anything to do with it in the whole chapter.

I made a thread about this once. Baptism seems to be closely linked to resurrection in a number of passages and not in a symbolic way. Would you agree with that?

Rom 6:3-4, does not refer to eternal salvation

We should be baptised "because of the remission of sins" by Jesus's death on the cross. Baptism is an answer of a good conscience toward God. There is a deliverance from our guilty conscience when we are baptised, but it is not the cause of our eternal deliverance.

You have 2 verses which appear to disprove that salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ, but instead is by faith in water baptism.
My United Church of Christ neighbors have tried to "correct" me about my misplaced faith in Christ alone, many times.

When I read a verse or two that seems to mean one thing and a hundred others that say something totally different, there must be a misunderstanding because the Bible is always correct.
Since you showed me two verses apparently about water baptism, should we throw out the entire gospel of John? Guess how many times it uses the word believe with no requirements for works like baptism?

I want to thank you to for your commits

CS1

I do understand that doctrine = teaching. The problem is that there some out there teaching 2+2=4 then there are others out there that teach 2+2=5. Just like baptism it is not a requirement for salvation. Then you have churches out there that say you must be baptized in order to be saved but that is not what the bible says.There are churches out there that say a divorced person can not be a pastor or elder but what does the bible say?

Jeremiah 3:6-8

6The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. 7And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

The Word Brings Salvation
1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Jesus's sacrifice, for the remission of sins for those that God gave to him, was not an offering to mankind, for mankind's acceptance, but was an offering to God, for God's acceptance. Jesus was not offering eternal deliverance for all of mankind to accept, but was the security of eternal inheritance for those that his Father gave him.

This knowledge of what Jesus had accomplished on the cross was given by the righteousness of God to the "remnant" of Israel (Jacob's name was changed by God to be called Israel - Gen 32:28), and the rest of God's born again children were blinded to this truth.

In Matthew seven, those who go into the straight gate, that leads to the abundant life that they receive here on earth, are the remnant, and those that go into the wide gate are the children of God that are blinded to the truth, and are preaching, and teaching the false doctrine of eternal deliverance by good works. The destruction is the false doctrine.

Faith does come from hearing the word of God. An example of this is seen in the gospel message initially given on the Day of Pentecost. Upon hearing the word of God the people believed the message and placed their trust in Jesus as seen in their willingness to repent, and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in order for their personal sin to be remitted. The listeners understood that Jesus' death, burial and resurrection was what opened the way to eternal salvation for everyone who would believe and obey.

Belief and obedience = Faith perfected. (James 2:22)

Jesus became the author of eternal salvation unto all those who obey Him. (Heb. 5:9) And Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16:15-16)

Verses 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.16.He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

You and I may be on the same page I am not sure. You notice the last half of that verse 16 says “But he that believeth not shall be damned.” If salvation is by believing and being baptized how come you are damned by just not believing.

I got saved on board ship there was no place to be baptized and the Christians I was studding with said they did baptism 2-3 times a year. There was an importance put on it they made sure I know that when we had the opportunity I should get baptized, but that it was not a requirement for salvation.

I have said it before and I will say it again I believe that every christian that is able should get baptized; I just do not buy into you must be baptized as soon as you are saved. I did a lot of street witnessing in my younger years. We would lead people to Jesus right there on the sidewalk they did not get baptized right there on the spot but yes they got baptized. Again I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, I believe that there is no other name in heaven, on earth, or below the earth that you can call on for salvation. Yes I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross and in His name and none other can I person be saved. I believe in water baptism; like I believe that like calling on the name of Jesus believing that Jesus is The Only Son of God, and through Him we have forgiveness of sin because of the blood He shed on the cross? NO. Do I believe a person should get baptized yes I do if I have said it once I will say it again and again . . . a thousand and one times yes you should be baptized. Never will you hear me say water baptism must happen as soon as you get saved or that baptism is a requirement for salvation.

I hope that helps clear things up.

Question...
Baptisim may not be necessary to be saved..... but....what good is your confession of faith if you refuse or just ignor your first commandment of your Lord? Belief and baptise.
Seen alot of these threads about this debate and truthfully no one has ever answered the question.
Accountable.....if you are mentally, physically, capable of being baptised then do it.
Reguardless of you theology on the subject it is a commandment.
We strive to be Christ like but wait wasnt he baptised? Think so...

If not eternal salvation, what do you think is meant by being in the likeness of Jesus' resurrection?

Many agree with you. However, the scripture does not say because of, it says for the remission of sin. If what you say is correct why did Ananias tell Paul to do it to wash away his sins? Acts 22:16

Having faith in Jesus is what brings about the reality of one's sins being remitted upon obedience to the command. If you will recall Jesus stated that he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Mark 16:15-16.

I truly understand. I believe that a lot of, born again, young children, are baptised without the knowledge of what baptism stands for, however, I do believe that young children become aware of the knowledge of the teaching of Christ's doctrine, the same way that us adults do, and that is by the revelation of the Holy Spirit within all who are born again.