Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

@Pray_without_ceasing ...
Could you make your text bigger , for those like myself who wear glasses , but have a hard time reading small print
Thank you...

Thank you so much , it is fine now...

Pray_without_ceasing said:
Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believe? As it is written, they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And unto what were you baptized?
Or, "control" as the topic seems to really be.

As you said previously:
"It's pretty simple: God is in control and we are not."

And you quoted from a paraphrased translation, the NLT;
Romans 8:9 NLT - "But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)"

Then I responded with these much better translations:

New International Version
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
English Standard Version
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Berean Literal Bible
Now you are not in flesh but in Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you; but if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him.
King James Bible
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
New American Standard Bible
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Christian Standard Bible
You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

Even the KJV got it right! There is NO mention of 'control' in the Greek, and these translations reflect that.

The verse is NOT about "control" as you seem to think, but about the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

Then I quoted 4 verses:

Eph 5:18 commands (the need to obey) believers to be "filled with the Spirit".
Gal 5:16 commands (the need to obey) believers to "walk by the means of the Spirit".

Eph 4:30 commands believers to NOT "grieve the Spirit".
1 Thess 5:19 commands believers to NOT "quench the Spirit".

Given these commands, how can you say that believers are "controlled by the Spirit". Yes, IF IF IF a believer is filled with the Spirit and walking by the Spirit, they ARE controlled by the Spirit.

But IF IF IF a believer is grieving or quenching the Spirit, they are NOT controlled by the Spirit.

So, now your assignment is to explain HOW to obey the commands to be filled and walk by means of the Spirit.

Once again, Day 268 grants us a fantastic picture of the Power and influence of our Almighty God. So what does the Lord do? God caused the kings of Persia to treat the Israelites “favorably.” Ezra 9:9 reads as follows:

NLT – “For we were slaves, but in his unfailing love our God did not abandon us in our slavery. Instead, he caused the kings of Persia to treat us favorably. He revived us so we could rebuild the Temple of our God and repair its ruins. He has given us a protective wall in Judah and Jerusalem.”

Were the kings of Persia given a choice to treat Israel with favor? No, they were not. One could say that God essentially controlled the minds of these kings as though robots. Why would the Lord do this? To show His Almighty Power. Consistently, and particularly as we read the Old Testament, we find that God is proving Himself in nearly every story. God is in control; God is all Powerful; God is Omnipotent; there is none other like our Powerful Almighty God.

So again, do humans have “free will?” No doubt, there is evidence that supports both sides of this particular ideology. However, in this specific story that involves the kings of Persia, they were not given a choice, but absolutely and without a doubt . . . controlled by the Lord. Clearly, God stripped these kings of their sense of “free will” (if it Truly exists).

But what is the alternate but just as important concept being relayed here?

• The Israelites were considered “slaves”
• God did not “abandon” Israel to this slavery but ultimately rescued them
• Israel was “revived”
• A protective wall or hedge had been placed around Israel

Is this not the Gospel in a snapshot? All people are born into Spiritual Slavery. But those who belong to Christ will not be abandoned, for they were chosen before the world’s creation and will not be cast out. Therefore, all who belong to Christ will be revived, and the Promised Holy Spirit will be the interceding Spirit to protect all Believers; those who had been given to Christ by His Father (to Redeem).

Day 269 of the timeline, chronological reading plan, once again shows us a set of prayers requesting that God control the thoughts and minds of specific individuals. If “free will” exists, wouldn’t this be a wrongful, controlling thing to request from God prayerfully?

Nehemiah 1:11 NLT – “O Lord, please hear my prayer! Listen to the prayers of those of us who delight in honoring you. Please grant me success today by making the king favorable to me. Put it into his heart to be kind to me.” In those days I was the king’s cup-bearer.”

Above, we find an incredible sequence of prayerful phrases. But before I continue, the potential is high that most might not agree with the translation above, which is the NLT. I hear you loud and clear, and I “get it.” I looked at 16 translations, and only two did not convey the same message as the alternate 14. The below translation is from the Jewish Tanakh. So how do our Blessed Jewish Brothers and Sisters communicate the exact phrases in Nehemiah 1:11? Check this out and give the NLT another chance:

Tanakh: “Oh Lord! Let Your ear be attentive to the prayer of Your servant, and to the prayer of Your servants who desire to hold Your name in awe. Grant Your servant success today, and dispose that man to be compassionate toward him!” I was the cup-bearer at the time.”

I Trust the Blessed Jews as they interpret their Holy Scriptures, and it just so happens that, in this instance, the writers of the New Living Translation got it right. The Tanakh and writers of the NLT agree on the following:

• Nehemiah prayed that his prayer is attentively heard; By saying “Please,” he is essentially begging that his prayers be heard. Obviously, these prayers are vital to him. But, if asking the Lord to cause others to change against their own will, wouldn’t such prayers be birthed by personal sin?
• Incredibly, Nehemiah prays that his prayers would not only be heard but honored by granting and fulfilling them.
• Nehemiah admits that he requests that the Lord take control of the mind of king Artaxerxes, to essentially force the king (against his will) by implanting into the king’s heart to be kind and compassionate toward him, Nehemiah.

So, here we are again with a Pure, Righteous, and Holy Man who is praying that God would control the thinking of another. How could these prayerful requests be wrong if Nehemiah qualifies himself with the following words: “Listen to the prayers of those of us who delight in honoring you.” Was Nehemiah “puffing” himself up to the Lord, attempting to convince Him that he is greater than her perhaps really is? Or, is Nehemiam properly describing himself and those who delight in honoring the Lord’s Name? No, Nehemiah is not self-Puffing.

Don’t we pray that God would change the thinking of others? When we have children that have run away and turned to prostitution, don’t we pray to the Lord that He would infiltrate their minds and turn their thinking around? Of course, we do. All people pray to the Lord that He would change people, what they think, do, and say. We all ask that God would change things about us. And why? Because “free will” isn’t, or wasn’t enough. If we are asking that the Lord change another person or group of people, such as an entire Nation, and if we are asking that the Lord change things within ourselves, why do we fight and push back on the idea that perhaps there is no such thing as “free will,” or at best, a limited sense of “free will?”

2 Samuel 15:31 NLT – “When someone told David that his adviser Ahithophel was now backing Absalom, David prayed, “O LORD, let Ahithophel give Absalom foolish advice!”

Day 274 is important, at least to me. Why? Because we’ve finally reached the New Testament and are leaving the Old Testament behind as we work through the entire Bible in a timeline, chronological format. My oh my, do we begin with a great passage that removes the concept of “free will” for the establishment of a new Believer after receiving the Baptism of John the Baptist. Luke 1:17 reads as follows:

NLT – “He will be a man with the spirit and power of Elijah. He will prepare the people for the coming of the Lord. He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and he will cause those who are rebellious to accept the wisdom of the godly.”

Think about those referenced in verse 17 above. Do these people, on their own volition and sense of “free will,” turn to the Lord? Or, will it be because of John that hearts are changed?

• He will prepare
• He will turn
• he will cause

How does John cause the hearts of others to be changed? It seems clear that John the Baptist had some association with Christ where he was apparently given the ability to offer Spiritual Circumcision to those whom the Lord had chosen before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians 1:4) Therefore, we must ask . . . if it were not for John, would these “prepared” people have had a change of heart? Could these people have changed through their own sense of “free will” if they had not received the Lord’s Baptism?

Consider the difference in thinking, believing, and “choosing” of those who refused the baptism of John:

Luke 7:30 NIV - “But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John).”

And what would have happened if the Pharisees had received John’s Baptism? Would they have rejected God’s purpose? Of course not, for this is the very point conveyed regarding John and his Holy Baptism. And doesn’t verse 30 above clearly indicate that the Pharisees and experts of the Law were unable to believe by their own choice but that the baptism of John would be required in order to believe? So where is the “free will” choice to believe? In this instance, “free will” doesn’t exist, for the ability to believe in Christ is not determined by a person’s own volition but is based upon whether or not they have been released from the Curse of the Lord.

Galatians 3:13 NLT – “But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”

All Curses cause a problem of some sort. Curses can affect the mind and/or the body. Curses can cause a person to think in a specific way, or they may cause some form of physical discomfort. The Curse that Jesus rescues us from is not physical, for the physical element of the Curse remains in place, proven by the fact that we must all die. But the Curse that Christ abolishes in the hearts of His Elect is a Curse that confuses. Below is an example of how Curses may cause confusion, the inability to think Godly and make balanced “choices.”

Deuteronomy 28:20 NLT - “The LORD himself will send on you curses, confusion, and frustration in everything you do, until at last you are completely destroyed for doing evil and abandoning me.”

According to Deuteronomy 28:20, how does a person discontinue the confusion issued by the Lord? No one can reverse a Curse of the Lord on their own, but instead, God, who is the author of such a Curse, His Son Jesus, is the one who removes it, proven by Galatians 3:13 above, where it states that Christ has rescued us from the Curse (that confuses).

Fortunately, today’s earlier post discovered a passage that should have been covered on Day 79 of the timeline, chronological order of reading the entire Bible. Deuteronomy 28:20 tells us that the Lord will essentially strip specific persons of the freedom to choose how they should think and feel.

Deuteronomy 28:20 NLT - “The LORD himself will send on you curses, confusion, and frustration in everything you do, until at last you are completely destroyed for doing evil and abandoning me.”

The Lord will apply to this group of people into a “Group Policy” type of Curse which instantly induces Holy Mind Control, made evident by general confusion and frustration . . . and this becomes the daily order for their thinking. “Free will?” What we have just read doesn’t sound like freedom to me. On the contrary, this [sounds] precisely like what it [feels] like if Satan remains as a person’s Spiritual Father. Until a person is reborn by the Hands of Christ, granted the ability to Repent, is given the Holy Spirit, and places Faith in the Work of Christ on the Cross . . . that person remains held captive by the Devil to ultimately do Satan’s deep, hidden works that few know about.

2 Timothy 2:26 NLT – “Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil’s trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.”

On the outside, a person can appear incredibly honest, humble, quiet, and helpful, but what are their true agendas? What do they do when no one is around and cannot be caught?

We are held captive by Satan unless Jesus has Circumcised him, the Devil, from ownership of our hearts. That’s precisely correct. And if you were Satan and your obvious job was to figure out how to get the most (sin) out of each minion he owns, wouldn’t Satan use each person in specific ways to maximize their value, worth, and longevity? In general, yes, which is why Satan works his ways through us (mere humans) in very sly, manipulative, and sometimes aggressive ways. Satan is constantly pushing his human minions into the realm of breaking laws. Remember, unless a person has received the Circumcision of Christ, thus removing the Devil from their heart, their life (at the core) will always be this evil way. To change behavior means that we much exchange our Spiritual Father . . . one for the other . . . and there are no alternatives. When a person has Truly accepted Jesus as their Redeemer and Holy God, they are set free of the Curse stemming from the sin of Adam and Eve and have been Graced with Eternal Life through our Lord, Jesus Christ!

But here is what is so beautiful about our Powerful God, and this is what makes our Faith so wonderful and unique . . . after being controlled by the Devil, the Holy Elect will be controlled by the Spirit, if the Spirit actually lives within them.

Romans 8:9 NLT – “But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all).”

As said, there are no alternates to Spiritual Fatherhood. We are merely humans and thus cannot be a Spiritual Father to anything or anyone . . . including ourselves. We are merely humans. Therefore, the Bible affords us one option in this matter: after being controlled by the Devil, we are to be controlled by the Spirit after Christ has completed the sum of His involving Work. From there, we will see the Fruits of the Spirit unfold and improve as time progresses. There may be times of hardship where a person takes one step back, but generally plows ahead and through . . . we never give up . . . we always endure.

Galatians 5:22-25 NLT – “But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things! Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives.”

If we could choose these types and forms of Spiritual Goodness as listed above, why would God feel the need to tell us that His Spirit will produce them through us and for us? “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control” – Clearly, there is no human choice in these things. We have nothing to do with selecting these particular gifts as they are granted in due time. And when we begin to focus on one of these behavioral changes, such as becoming more gentle, we will find ourselves digging into that exact topic. Being determined to learn all that one can about becoming more gentle and successfully following through with ongoing commitment, we might look at ourselves and say, “Well . . . look at what I have done.” The Bible is clear: the Spirit will produce these things, not the individual. The Holy Spirit doesn’t announce Himself each time He places thoughts into our minds. I’ve never heard the Voice of God, so all I know is that anything good that comes out of me is not me, but it is of God.

And don’t forget this vital fact: we are a living demonstration of the Power of God. We are currently on display to the Rulers and Authorities in the Heavenly Realms.

Ephesians 3:10-11 NIV – “His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

• Intent
• Manifold Wisdom (Power) made known to Rulers and Authorities in the Heavenly Realms
• Eternal Purpose
• Accomplished through Jesus Christ our Powerful, Almighty Lord

Day 280 of the timeline, chronological reading plan gives us an interesting position regarding the Holy Calling of Jesus Christ. This passage shows us the Drawing Power of Christ amongst His new Disciples. Mark 2:14 reads as follows:

NLT – “As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at his tax collector’s booth. “Follow me and be my disciple,” Jesus said to him. So Levi got up and followed him.”

We see this same response from the other Disciples where Scripture records this initial recruiting process of Christ.

Matthew 9:9 NLT – “As Jesus was walking along, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at his tax collector’s booth. “Follow me and be my disciple,” Jesus said to him. So Matthew got up and followed him.”

Matthew 4:18-22 NLT – “One day as Jesus was walking along the shore of the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers--Simon, also called Peter, and Andrew--throwing a net into the water, for they fished for a living. Jesus called out to them, “Come, follow me, and I will show you how to fish for people!” And they left their nets at once and followed him. A little farther up the shore he saw two other brothers, James and John, sitting in a boat with their father, Zebedee, repairing their nets. And he called them to come, too. They immediately followed him, leaving the boat and their father behind.”

Who chose whom? Did Jesus choose these men, or did they choose Jesus? One thing we know for sure is that Jesus knew who these men were, for Jesus is the Almighty Creator . . . He knows all things. However, these Disciples had never seen nor heard of Jesus before, so what would inspire them to instantly place their Trust in Christ to the degree that they would all drop their very lives to follow Him?

Using Simon as an example, look at what Jesus imparted into the life and mind of this young man: Jesus directly told Simon his future when He, Jesus said, “Don’t be afraid! From now on you’ll be fishing for people!” (Luke 5:10)

When Jesus said these words to Simon, was Jesus placing a request, or was Jesus telling him how things would be? In other words, when Jesus spoke to these men to “drop their nets,” for example, did they do as instructed because Christ had influenced their minds to respond in such a way?

What is more, do these passages not remind us exactly of what the Lord said and did with Abraham in Genesis 17? Yes, this is the exact same edict as given to Abraham.

Genesis 17:1 KJV - "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect."

“Free will.” Did these men follow Jesus from their own unbridled, uninhibited sense of “free will,” or did the Lord place Holy Edicts into their minds to predispose them to such “decisions” that would cause them to follow Him, Jesus Christ?

.

I don't know much about cell phone software, but my desktop computer's
web browsers incorporate zoom tools that are handy for small fonts.

FYI: I use Firefox and Google Chrome.
_

Day 284 of the timeline, chronological reading plan touches on what we just covered two days ago from Day 274 (Luke 1:17). You may recall that we were discussing John the Baptist and the apparent Power that was flowing through him, allowing him to participate in the Circumcision of Christ. Luke 7:28-30 reads as follows:

NLT – “I tell you, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John. Yet even the least person in the Kingdom of God is greater than he is!" When they heard this, all the people--even the tax collectors--agreed that God's way was right, for they had been baptized by John. But the Pharisees and experts in religious law rejected God's plan for them, for they had refused John's baptism.”

If we recall, Luke 1:17 states that John would prepare the way of the Lord and cause the hearts of people to essentially receive Christ. Likewise, Luke 7:28-30 absolutely indicates, and quite clearly, that the Baptism of John the Baptist represented a Spiritual change of some kind, and that change would be established through the extraction of the Sinful Nature, SO THAT Spiritual Blindness would be lifted, thus granting these people the ability to understand and [see.]

Again . . . what is significant about John's Baptism? Perhaps the Baptism of John is a Holy Baptism that lifts the Sin Nature. Similarly, why would Jesus forgive sins, but not remove the Sinful Nature? Wouldn't such an act by Christ be equivalent to "casting pearls upon pigs?" It would be utterly foolish for Christ to pay the penalty for sin, yet the sinner not only keeps on sinning but their lust and thirst for the sweet, sugary goo of Satan continues to grow and grow?

Therefore, we are suggesting that those who were Baptized by John, were enabled to Spiritually See and Understand the things that he was preaching and teaching about. How else can a person Spiritually Understand unless the Curse of Confusion has been lifted from their heart? They cannot, for as long as one carries the Sinful Nature, their sense of Holy Wisdom is limited to worldly ideas; nothing more. The ability to view existence through the lenses of the Heavenly Realms does not seem to be an option. And if this is True, what does this say about free will?

What we clearly see from Scripture is that the particular way that a person felt regarding the issues of Christ, these feelings, thoughts, and emotions depended not upon “free will,” but upon the baptism of John. The Bible is clearly telling us that a Spiritual change in a baptized person took place because of John and his specific baptism.

The “free will” concept just doesn’t belong to the story of John above. This story of John the Baptist is another story and example of the Power of God in how He alone implements change within people, specifically His Holy Elect.

Day 285 of the timeline, chronological reading plan gives us a glimpse directly into the Mysterious Plan of God, as noted by Paul in his letter, Ephesians.

Ephesians 1:9 NLT – “God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure.”
Ephesians 3:3 NLT – “As I briefly wrote earlier, God himself revealed his mysterious plan to me.”

This Mysterious Plan has everything to do with today’s reading, which is Matthew 11:25-27 NLT – “At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike. Yes, Father, it pleased you to do it this way! "My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

The Mysterious Plan very much involves the Work of Christ, which is to give Spiritual sight to the Spiritually blind, to make the Spiritually Lame walk in the Spirit of God, and give life to those who are Spiritually dead. We know this from two passages that precede verses 25-27. They are:

Matthew 11:4-5, 15 NLT – “Jesus told them, "Go back to John and tell him what you have heard and seen-- 5 the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised to life, and the Good News is being preached to the poor.” ... 15 “Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!”

In Matthew chapter 11, we find that John the Baptist is in prison. However, he hears about all that Jesus is doing and teaching, thus John sends his disciples to question Jesus to see if He is the True One that John had been waiting for. Jesus’s response? His message is that he gives sight to the blind, and causes the lame to walk. Of course, these saying are meant only for John to understand, for Jesus is actually talking about Spiritual Circumcision which is what results in Spiritual sight, and causes a person to Walk in the Spirit. What else would it mean, that if anyone had ears to hear, that he should listen and understand? This is a Spiritual reference to being enabled to hear the Truth when it is given.

John 9:39-41 NLT – “Then Jesus told him, "I entered this world to render judgment--to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind." Some Pharisees who were standing nearby heard him and asked, "Are you saying we're blind?" "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see.”

Above, we are clearly told what the Purpose of Christ is, and it is to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they remain blind. In other words, His Purpose is to remove the Curse of the Lord, and cause the Elect to Walk Holy and Righteous in the footsteps of Christ.

What do these passages mean for the “free will” concept? First, if choices and options are kept from us, such as the Plan of God, then of what use would be “free will” be? If we are not given a set of choices, then there is no “free will,” and yet that’s exactly what we find within this set of Scripture. Incredibly, Jesus actually prays and literally thanks God for hiding the Mysterious Plan of God from the people. We also find that those who “Know” Christ are those who Christ chooses to reveal the Lord. Therefore, it is fair to ask . . . who chooses whom? “. . . no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

When Jesus states that anyone with “ears” should listen and understand . . . He is clearly referencing the process by which a Spiritual person sees and views reality according to the Spiritual Realm. To have been given “ears to hear” means that a person’s mind has been Enabled to not only hear Christ, but to intellectually understand Him according to whatever He proposes.

And again in John chapter 9 above, the Purpose of Christ healing the heart is that it causes us to think in a New Way; with the Mind of Christ. But until a person obtains the Mind of Christ, it is impossible for them to consistently “choose” to be Righteous, Holy, Blameless and Pure. No one is Truly free until they have been released from the Curse that stems back to Adam and Eve.

The born again child of God separates himself from his fellowship with God (not his eternal inheritance that was secured on the cross) by yielding to the temptation of sin, temporary, until he repents. God will not fellowship sin, even turning his back on his Son, as he bear the sins of those that his Father gave him.

All of the nation of Israel will not be delivered eternally, because not all of the inhabitants of the nation of Israel were included in those that God gave to Jesus to die for (John 6:39). Jacob's name was changed by God (Gen 32:28) to be called Israel. Romans 11:26 - And so all Israel/Jacob shall be saved, as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. Jacob/Israel is representative of God's elect (Rom 9:11) For the children, being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,

Israel/Jacob includes not only a part of the nation of Israel, but also includes those out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. (rev 5:9).

All who are born again, and have the promise of eternal heaven, still carry the baggage of their sinful nature with them as they struggle to walk in God's commandments. Paul teaches this to us in Romans 7:18-25.

God has all knowledge, knowing from the beginning of time, that we would all commit sins, but God did not predestine that we should sin. There are numerous scriptures where God tells us to make choices, but he does not predetermine what choices that we make. God does, however, eternally save those that he gave to his Son (John 6:39) to redeem them by his sovereign grace, without mankind's choice, from the sins that they will commit. God gives mankind the freedom to make his own choices as he sojourns here on earth, but God does not give mankind a choice in his eternal inheritance, that is by God's sovereign grace.

"p_rehbein said:
CALVIN, OSAS, AND FREE WILL

The Calvinist's and the Calvinist's Lite guys (OSAS'ers) have one wee problem to deal with which they don't seem to be able to do, other than to either deny it's existence, or simply ignore it.

That would be FREE WILL."

How is free will a problem for eternal security? There isn't any problem.

The problem is understanding what happens when a person comes to faith in Jesus Christ. Everything changes, and NONE of it is reversible or the Bible would actually and clearly address it.

1. the believer is justified. Rom 3,4, 5:1
2. the believer becomes a child of God. John 1:12, Gal 3:26
3. the believer becomes a new creature. 2 Cor 5:17
4. the believer possesses eternal life. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47
5. the recipient of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28
6. NO verse says that salvation can be lost.

See? No problem whatsoever.

Are you sure that the Sinful Nature remains? If so, then why is Jesus our Redeemer? From what does He Redeem us? A Cursed body? No, the Curse upon our body remains proven by the fact that we shall all die. However, our Spirit is Redeemed from the element of the Curse that includes the Sinful Nature. The Holy Purpose of Christ is to Redeem us, or separate us from that Curse.

Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - "For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

Above, verse nine shows that Christ is in God and thus He possesses the Fullness of God.
Verse 10 compares our wholeness and completeness with Christ because it states that we are united with Christ. Therefore, just as Christ is complete in the Father, so are His Human Elect.
Verse 11 states clearly that True Christians receive a Spiritual Circumcision; the removal of the Sinful Nature.
Verse 12 states that this Circumcision equates to being buried and raised with Christ to New Life.
Verse 13 states that prior to the removal of the Sinful Nature, we are considered Spiritually dead, but because the Sinful Nature is cut away for the True Christian, those who receive this Operation of Faith cross over from Spiritual death to Spiritual Life.
Verse 14 states that our Sinful Nature and Laws that condemn us, are nailed to the Tree with Christ and are crucified through Him.
Verse 15 states that the Spiritual Rulers and Authorities who held a person captive to do their will, have been disarmed, defeated, and victory is the result for the Child of God by the Hands of Christ.

Paul could not write the Scriptures if his Spiritual remained under the Curse of the Lord, for this Curse causes general confusion (without knowing it) and does not allow a person to Understand, and possess Spiritual Knowledge, and Wisdom. Romans chapter 7 is about Paul, the Old Man . . . who Christ crucified exactly as described in Colossians 2:9-15 above. This is the utter Heart and point of the entire Gospel. The Curse of the Lord must be dealt with . . . this is the single most important concept that any human should possess and understand.

Of course our sinful nature (human nature) remains. Paul spoke clearly about the sin nature in Romans 5-8.

That is why believers were given 1 John 1:9. Fellowship (not relationship) is broken by sin (Isa 6618) and restored through confession of sin.

If believers didn't have a sin nature, then the commands to NOT grieve/quench the Spirit are meaningless and unnecessary. Eph 4:30, 1 Thess 5:19

Believers are redeemed from the PENALTY of sin. Which is the LOF. Our physical bodies WILL die, yes, but at the resurrection, they will be raised and glorified and will NEVER die.

You are rather confused. At the moment of faith, the believer is said to be born AGAIN or RE-generated. So what, specifically, does that refer to? The DEAD human spirit is born again or regenerated.

When Adam sinned, he DID die "on that day". But it wasn't physical; it was spiritual, referring to his human spirit. So all humans are born physically alive with a soul, but are spiritually dead because of Adam.

Day 287 of the timeline, chronological reading plan, clearly outlines Scripture that deals specifically with the doctrine of Illumination. Matthew 13:11-17, the Words of Jesus, reads as follows:

NLT – “He replied, "You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not. 12 To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them. 13 That is why I use these parables, For they look, but they don't really see. They hear, but they don't really listen or understand. 14 This fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah that says, 'When you hear what I say, you will not understand. When you see what I do, you will not comprehend. 15 For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear, and they have closed their eyes--so their eyes cannot see, and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, but they didn't see it. And they longed to hear what you hear, but they didn't hear it.”

Above, our Lord and Savior was Clearly describing His Illuminating Ways and how this phenomenon works. First, verse 11 tells us that certain people are “permitted” to Understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven. So, in other words, certain people are placed into a “Group Policy” that grants Understanding regarding specific information that the Lord desires that one would have. Therefore, if a person is not “permitted” to Understand, if they are [not] placed into the “Group Policy,” they will not and cannot Turn to the Lord, just as verse 15 clearly states . . . “their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me.” Quite literally, a person is incapable of Turning to Christ unless he or she has been brought from Spiritual death to Spiritual Life, which is done through Spiritual Circumcision as clearly described in Colossians 2:9-15. A person must be removed from the Spiritual “Group Policy” that applies to the Curse of God. When a person is taken out of Spiritual “Deep Sleep” (which equates to the Sinful Nature), they are set free and can begin to think and behave in Righteous ways representing a complete, well-balanced Mind of Christ. But until then, and according to the image Paul paints below of how the Sinful Nature works, a person will remain Spiritually blind and deaf.

Romans 11:8 NLT – “As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

The Purpose of Christ is to Redeem us from the Curse of the Lord. The Work of Christ does just that; it separates, Enables, grants, and even pays the debt for our sins so that we would be made Right with Father God.

Romans 5:12, 15-21 NLT - 12 “When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. “... 15 “But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God's gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man's sin. For Adam's sin led to condemnation, but God's free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Yes, Adam's one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. 19 Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous. 20 God's law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God's wonderful grace became more abundant. 21 So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God's wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

What does it mean to “live in triumph” over sin and death? Does it seem reasonable that a person who has triumphed over sin and evil would continue to frequent prostitutes? Would they continue to beat their wife and children? Would they continue their substance abuse? Would they continue their sexual prowess with many lovers? Would they continue to curse, swear, and speak like the world? Or, does a person who has “triumphed over sin” undergo the process of Sanctification . . . a Holy Transformation that comes by way of Renewal of the Mind?

Romans 12:2 NLT – “Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.”

Having been Spiritually drawn by the Spirit, a person is first Circumcised by Christ, then Enabled to Turn to God, Repent, and accept the gift of the Holy Spirit. When a person is released from the Curse by the Hands of Christ, they will naturally gravitate toward their new Master, their Illuminating Christ. There will be no other choice to make once a person has been gifted Holy Illumination . . . they [will] respond to Christ. Further, this is the very Promise that was Mysteriously discussed in Genesis chapter 17. The Promise is that of a Circumcised Heart so that Jews and Gentiles alike will share in the Promised Holy Land (Heaven). It is the Circumcision of Christ that breaks down the wall of hostility between Jew and Gentile, for this Purity that only comes from Christ is what establishes the Righteous and Holy from the evil and degenerate. There are two groups of thinking in this world . . . those with the mind of the Devil and those with the Mind of Christ. The two think and operate in two completely distinct ways.

If this is True, then “free will” is . . . at best . . . limited. But again, story after story shows that God is leading, guiding, and directing all creation down a precisely detailed pre-written Plan, written in the Heavenly Scroll of the Lord.

As I began collecting and organizing these passages that at least seem to have an impact on the understanding of “free will,” I was forced to accept they these stories were real and that the building number of them all was overwhelming. I don’t recall at what point, but I did eventually cave into the fact that there is so much Biblical evidence that this is what the Bible centers around . . . the controlling Force of God as He uses all of His creation as a way to demonstrate His Almighty Power over all. In other words, God told of what He would do here on earth, and He is doing it . . . perfectly.

Free will? Well, we’re all entitled to believe what is in our hearts, yet I will always say that God is in control of my life and not the other way around. I’d be constantly unnerved if I felt alone and apart from God and felt like I was in total control. No, I much prefer to be aware that God is in control of my desire to be in control.

Eternal salvation was accomplished by Jesus death on the cross, in redeeming all of the sins, past, present and future of those that his Father gave him (John 6:39) After Jesus work on the cross, God says he looks upon their sins as they are as far away as the east is from the west.