Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

Please respond with your scriptural reference that dictates a pre-trib rapture before the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ as per the cumulative dictum of the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John and our Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach.

Please show forth the dictum of our LORD Yeshua specifying their will be two seperate Resurections for the Just and then a third resurrection for the unjust as per your and TheDivineWatermark statements wherby you adhere to these things, ie; pre-trib rapture before the Resurrection and then another Church Body of Christ springing up after this supposed pre-trib rapture along with another seperate rapture for the Tribulation Saints who make it unto your claim to a Third Coming of the LORD.

So the Fathers house is not in heaven

and the 24 Elders (the Church) are not in heaven

the throne of God is not in heaven

and the cherubim are not in heaven either? Doesn't sound right to me bro.

Rev 11:16
And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 14:3
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rev 19:4
And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

We are not "partial-rapturists"... We are NOT saying He will "leave saints behind" when we are raptured. NO!

It is a matter of WHEN people come to faith. You don't seem to be whining, "but why CAN'T I be an OT saint?!?! NO FAIR!!" That would be silly, as they came to faith at a different time... you can't be one. It's that simple.

I notice that pretrib view isnt quite understood by all ill try and give it another whirl, im not trying to convince you to change your mind, Im trying to show how I view the chronolgy of events? Ive noticed pre tribbers have a good understanding of the post trib position and I find it curious post tribbers still do not understand the pretrib position, maybe its hard to see

The day of the Lord is referring to the 7yrs of tribulation the time of wrath and judgment that is going to come upon the earth over the 7 yr period, After the rapture happens people are going to go where is Clayman? I was sure he was right here just before! (probably hiding again)

Anyway people will notice a lot of people missing and a Man will start to have great influence upon the whole world and will be supported by an alliance of 10 prominent nations. He will be the savior of the world, and will bring peace esp to Israel, while most people will follow and submit to him and his new age all loving religion, there are going to be a few saying, "What if that Clayman guy was right all along, look the people disappeared in the rapture, we are sinners and judgment is nigh" And they repent and ask God for forgiveness

Also there will be these two guys in Jerusalem preaching the Gospel to the world, and there will be a great many converts. So there are going to be Christians in the tribulation period from a pre tribulation rapture viewpoint who must now go through great trials and persecutions there will be lots of martrys, also one should ask what happens to these new believers? they have missed the rapture could they have missed the resurrection to eternal life as well? No they still partake in the resurrection of the righteous for the first resurrection is completed at the end of the tribulation period at the Lords coming.

So no need to fear for we are reassured by the scriptures they also will be resurected. Thats why there is an order as per 1Cor15:23

More specifically Rev 20:4 tells us those getting resurrected at this time are those from the tribulation period! They are those martyred, those who refused to worship the beast or receive his mark, unique traits that apply to them not us. Again why is it specifically pointing to tribulation saints? We are already resurrected and with the Lord.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

FreeGrace2 said:
And, may I point out that in NEITHER passage is there ANY mention of Jesus taking anyone to heaven.

Yes, it is in heaven. Don't be silly.


The vast majority of church age believers will be ALREADY in heaven by the time of the Second Advent, so your question is beyond irrelevant. All believers from Adam forward who have died are NOW in heaven.

I gave you what Henry Morris thought the 24 elders were. What more do you want? I doubt you have any idea.


Actually it is in heaven, so why are you being so silly?


None of your questions sound right. Why do you presume I think any of these silly things?


OK, from this verse, WHO are the 24 elders?


OK, from this verse, WHO are the 4 beasts?


One more time, from this verse, WHO are the 24 elders?

Do you have any clue?

Oh, and btw, how do any of these 3 verses relate to your theory of a rapture trip to heaven?

Every believer from Adam forward who has died was taken to heaven, while their dead bodies are still on earth.

So none of these verses are relevant to any part of the resurrection.

Examine more closely...

I did.

(And, I am glad I did - because, I learned something very interesting that I had not thought about before.)

You are correct about it being transitive; however, that does not change the meaning of the perfect indicative form of the root word G1764.

It does not mean that 'the day of Christ' (itself) is 'present' (or, has occurred); rather, it means that the base meaning of the root word 'to place on hand' [has occurred] - i.e. - that 'the day of Christ' is 'imminent'.

The whole sentence, in the context of the passage, is [effectively] saying that the day of Christ is not 'imminent'.

(But that, in fact, some things must/would [still yet] occur before 'the day of Christ'.)

It was the idea of the day of Christ being 'imminent' that was the "false claim" that was at the center of the concern...

-Well, do you know who the 24 elders are and the 4 beasts, or not?
-glorified trip to heaven?

It does not mean that 'the day of Christ' (itself) is 'present' (or, has occurred); rather, it means that the base meaning of the root word 'to place on hand' [has occurred] - i.e. - that 'the day of Christ' is 'imminent'.

The whole sentence, in the context of the passage, is [effectively] saying that the day of Christ is not 'imminent'.

It does not mean that 'the day of Christ' (itself) is 'present' (or, has occurred); rather, it means that the base meaning of the root word 'to place on hand' [has occurred] - i.e. - that 'the day of Christ' is 'imminent'.
[...]
It was the idea of the day of Christ being 'imminent' that was the "false claim" that was at the center of the concern...

1) of course I do. The 24 Elders are the pre-trib raptured Church on their glorified bodies.

The "zoon ζῷον " are cherubim who guard the throne of God.

2) in His glorified resurrection body, Jesus shuttled back and forth and back and forth from heaven to earth many times. It could have been many many more times than were recorded.

So it shall be with us in our resurrected bodies. Pretty obvious bro.

Types, patterns, structure, examples.

"show me the verse" is sooooo one dimensional.

Not sure about that bro...

has come ἐνέστηκεν
(enestēken) 1764: to place in, to be at hand, perf. part. to be present from en and histémi

@Lucy-Pevensie , when "our Rapture" takes place, NO BELIEVER / SAINT / member of the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY will be "left behind"; Thus, ALL who are present on the earth at the start of the Trib yrs are UNSAVED / UNBELIEVERS (however you want to say it).

But they don't STAY that way; I don't mean all of them, I just mean MANY ppl will be coming to faith in Christ THEN / DURING the trib years, and thus will BECOME "saints" (the "saints" being spoken of in the passages covering that time-period).




Matt24:14 [26:13] is what msg will be going out DURING the Trib years (FOLLOWING "our Rapture"); it is not speaking of what msg is going out presently. [let the readers compare Matt24:14 with Rev7:9, for example]

So the activities of The Antichrist cause unbelievers to repent by hearing a different gospel message while we dine in heaven.
2 churches & 2 gospels.

So the activities of The Antichrist cause unbelievers to repent by hearing a different gospel message while we dine in heaven.
2 churches & 2 gospels.

So the activities of The Antichrist cause unbelievers to repent by hearing a different gospel message while we dine in heaven.
2 churches & 2 gospels.

There is a distinction made between trib saints and the Church. As there is between OT saints and the Church.

The Church per se is one and done. Starts at Pentecost ends at the rapture. THEN the 70th week of Daniel, where God intervenes with wrath and judgments upon the earth dwellers, and also finalizes His dealings and fulfills His covenant with Israel. Of course others (trib saints and sheep gentiles) get an overflow of redemptive blessings too.

Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

I did.

(And, I am glad I did - because, I learned something very interesting that I had not thought about before.)

You are correct about it being transitive; however, that does not change the meaning of the perfect indicative form of the root word G1764.

It does not mean that 'the day of Christ' (itself) is 'present' (or, has occurred); rather, it means that the base meaning of the root word 'to place on hand' [has occurred] - i.e. - that 'the day of Christ' is 'imminent'.

The whole sentence, in the context of the passage, is [effectively] saying that the day of Christ is not 'imminent'.

(But that, in fact, some things must/would [still yet] occur before 'the day of Christ'.)

It was the idea of the day of Christ being 'imminent' that was the "false claim" that was at the center of the concern...