Poll of polls on the longest running debate:

Excuse me, you said, 'that you cannot have assurance if salvation can be lost'.

I know for a fact, that no one can ultimately know whether thy are saved or not. You could be deeply deceived into thinking your saved when you never were. Our assurance is by faith in God's promise to us. By the firm assurance of the Holy Spirit within us.

No one can know the end from the beginning. Our salvation and any assurance is entirely centered upon Jesus Christ.

We don't have assurance because of OSAS because no one knows, whether they are saved in the end.

God cannot err but we are constantly in error.

The apostles all through the New Testament are writing letters to churches in error. Some of these letters are very long letters.

The letters are full of warnings and encouragement, why would there be any warnings if you cannot fall away?

There is a difference between believing and believing unto Salvation.

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

People can fall away.

But not Saved people.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

A pig is not a Saved person. A pig is an animal with no understanding of Salvation.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

If that sow was saved then verse 9 of 2 Peter 2 is contradicted. The Lord DIDN'T deliver the godly out of her temptations.

You're okay with pushing your imagination onto scripture even when it contradicts other scripture???

THIS is the ONLY way people can attempt to show Salvation can be lost.

They take a scripture and then ASSUME it means a certain thing and attempt to make YOU see it that way too.

Upon further inspection you see that their original ASSUMPTION was incorrect. Its sometimes difficult to see this. Its usually REALLY easy.

And yet, the Bible Hub disagrees with you by claiming in Verse 20 these are Believers.


Like I already mentioned, I gave up on the hillbilly Doctrines long ago.

Of course there is a difference between relying on works and believing unto salvation. As the verse (Matthew 7:22-23) shown above illustrates.

Though we are discussing whether or not the Christian life and it's choices. Have a bearing on protecting us and others, from running the risk of losing our faith in Jesus.

Salvation is a free gift given to those that believe.

If you wish to shipwreck your faith through bad life choices then that is your decision.

Fully agree with what you stated.

Every single Christian in the world has some level of error within their interpretation of the scripture.

It is impossible to have a perfect understanding of the revelation of the Christ.

This forces us to rely on Jesus even more.

A clever craftsman is in the background in the New Testament.

I agree, but how do you know that you are one of the elect?

So what are those people falling away from, what shipwreck were they subject to?

No worries buddy. The Lord’ll explain it to ya on the way up as the rapture happens!

That's the intermittent eternal life doctrine. It's eternal. Now it's temporary. Now it's eternal. Now it's not. Might as well get a flower. God loves me. God loves me not.

What happens if someone who claims to be “Born Again” is actually a “Heretic”?

Should this be its own topic instead of me posting this here?

Please delete my above post as I am starting this as a new thread instead, so I hopefully get some views.

The Bible Hub disagrees with me?

That's ok. I have a long distinguished list of people that disagree with me. SDA, Hebrew Roots, RCC, Greek Orthodox, LDS, Church of Christ,.. I'm sure I'm leaving some out. My apologies to the distinguished group (s) I have forgotten that disagree with me..

You work out your Salvation with fear and trembling.

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.



They are falling away from the faith that COULD bring them to Christ, but didn't.

The faith that their Pastor might be preaching about in the church they go to. (Not likely)

The faith that is in their bibles that they are reading, but not quite understanding.


You know, the seed that fell on the rocky ground. The seed is the Word of God. The rocky ground is the people who hear but don't quite understand how to make their faith sure. And then they walk away because they didn't get their instant gratification or wishes fulfilled or whatever it was they expected. They maybe even claimed to be Christian. They maybe even emulated what they thought a Christian was, for a time.

Did this make them saved then un-saved? No sir.

Grandpa,
You, like myself, are not wavering. we aren't falling for a new gospel, a new Jesus, a new idea about God. we are too far into our Journey having been through trials and tribulations watching God bring us through to suddenly be swayed by the newest and greatest and latest belief system out there. we are so far along in our Journey if we were here when the Antichrist proclaims to be God we would be like Meshach-Shadrach-Abednego and would not bow down and take Death in a heartbeat.

but there's thousands of Believers not as seasoned like we are. Newer to the Faith. still on the Fence of what is correct and wrong. This is who Verse 20 speaks about. and yes, the Bible-Hub does claim this very same thing.

as for you and myself, WE ARE SECURE in God! from Knowledge, Experience, and Growth. we are not Wavering!

"But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." Galatians 2:17-18

This passage says it all.

That’s called OSAS.

I've come to the conclusion that we default to believing what we want to believe, and we don't want to believe what we don't believe. For example, the thought process goes something like this, "I believe this is the truth so, if it doesn't mean this, then I don't want to believe it." While the best practice approach to scripture is, "Lord help me, because I don't want to believe a lie, I want to believe the truth," I'm not sure we have the humility to get there unless we 'believe' we are most vulnerable to, most of all, self-deception. Self-deception this is the root of the world's problem which persists. And that persistence shows in the extent of the long-running of this debate.
At some point, the truth is presented and, too very quickly, someone then replies, "No."