Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

1 John 5:11-13 + John 6:47

I first started talking in this thread on page 52 so my train of thought has been going for a while now.

I'm not saying you need to keep the law of Moses, but that you simply must maintain true, genuine, sincere, faith. That's what true believers do anyway, right? The Bible says so.

If someone truly believes something, then it's actually pretty effortless. I am typing on a keyboard sitting at a little desk in my cube-shaped bedroom; there's nothing anyone could say convince me otherwise. I'll maintain this belief until my deathbed because I can't separate myself from it, short of it being proved I've been dreaming this whole time.

Faith in God is the same way to me, however, I do think people can end up doubting Him temporarily and sometimes even for the rest of their life. I did it for 10 years until God decided to remove all doubt.

I think of the letter from Paul where we're told salvation is of God. A free eternal gift that does not expire or cancel. It's not our doing it is of God.

Being God is God for all that means and we are all he created us to be, I think he would not be surprised if any one of us had a doubt from time to time.

Or were so overwhelmed by life that we wondered why he wasn't helping out. And maybe as a result we lost our faith.

That's us. The human condition. Weaker and less knowledgeable than our maker.

But since God said he calls us to Jesus, and we can come no other way, as Jesus told us, and salvation is permanent and his gift, I'll believe God knows our weaknesses. And called us to him anyway.

And that's why those other people mentioned in this discussion, those who sin up a storm and claim to be saved, can do that. Because if I believe God and his teaching, they aren't called by him. They're not saved.

That's why they can sin up a storm and it doesn't bother them. They don't know any better because they're still in that natural mind state.

At least that's how I see it.

2 Corinthians 1

Ephesians 4

Ain't that the truth.

I do find it odd given the alternative to salvation why anyone claiming salvation would insist they're not all that secure with it.

I had a feeling they were allowed having read some thoughts on the boards.

I don't imagine they would last long. Why bother in the first place? You don't believe but hang with people who do?

Stuck on OSAS? It is the topic of this thread. Again, you are trying to evade the logical consequences of your own position.

1 Jn 4:15 says: "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God." So, if it is true that once God dwells in you by His Spirit, after that you can never lose Him, then all who confess Jesus Christ as the Son of God, per the OSAS theory, are already saved for all eternity. It's really as simple as that.

And if that's not true, OSAS is not true. OSAS is the False Gospel. The True Gospel is Justification+Perseverance = Salvation. Your accusing me of a false Gospel is nothing else but projection on your part. I am preaching Biblical Truth.

Taught in Mat 24:12-13: "12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

And 2 Pet 1:5-11: "
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;
6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;
7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love.
8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,
11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I intend to follow this passage. I would suggest you do the same. If you do, you will be saved. If not, I don't know.

The verse says clearly, "if you do these things, you will never stumble", but according to you, "you will never stumble without doing these things". Hmm, so do I go with you, or do I go with the Word of God? Sorry, but I choose the latter.

Regardless of your doctrinal position, the only thing that's saves us is the grace of God. His Amazing Grace.

Watch the following.

So, who are "they"? Calvinists. And they are wrong. Those who return to a life of sin will experience God's painful discipline.

1 Cor 3:15 is clearly talking about eternal reward which will be lost.

There was no sarcasm, that is what a poster said to me.

We are required to share the whole counsel of God, not just some of it. Many pastors won't talk about sin, or hell, or the rapture, or a number of other topics. They don't share the warnings that are given to Christians.

Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

FreeGrace2 said:
Then explain how John 5:24 doesn't say that believers possess eternal life and then explain how John 10:28 doesn't say that recipients of eternal life shall NEVER perish.

Every verse you think teaches loss of salvation is refuted by these 2 verses.

So I look forward to your 'explanations'.
Thank you for your patience.

Jesus SAID that those He gives eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. But you don't believe that very clear statement. Why?

In John 5:24 Jesus said much more than that. He plainly said that whoever believes POSSESSES eternal life, WILL NOT come into condemnation (that's eternal security) and has passed (past tense) from (spiritual) death to (eternal life). Combine the possession of eternal life with what Jesus said in John 10:28 about recipients of eternal life shall never perish, and you have eternal security.

I wish you had just cited the verse. Because what you 'explain' here isn't John 10:28 at all. So what are you talking about?

None of this supports your loss of salvation scenario and isn't found in the Bible.

So you really think that Heb 10 refutes and contradicts John 5:24 with 10:28?? Nonsense.

Yuck! I'll stick with the plain words of King Jesus every day! You are in error BECAUSE of those "church fathers".

Then he was an idiot. Jesus taught it plainly. So he must have not read what Jesus said.

You couldn't be more wrong. No Bible writer taught perseverance for salvation. Maybe the "church fathers" did, but what does that get you?

Well, you tried again. But nothing you "explained" supports your false understanding of either John 5:24 or 10:28.

OK.

From what is seen so commonly on these forums, there's a whole lot of pastors who have totally FAILED to teach the Word of God.

But not Paul! Most of the NT was his teaching.

This is what Paul regarding one's salvation:

Eph 1:13,14 - 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1. having believed we are marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit
2. the Holy Spirit is a DEPOSIT GUARANTEEING our inheritance
3. having believed, we are God's possession

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1. having believed (1:13) we were sealed for the DAY OF REDEMPTION
2. no verses that even suggest or hint that anyone, including our selves can break this seal
3. this seal is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance (1:14)

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 5:5 - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

1. here Paul repeats what he wrote to the Ephesians. Those who have believed have the Holy Spirit as a deposit which is a guarantee for the day of redemption, which is "what is to come".
2. all these verses prove that those who have believed have been sealed as a guarantee for the day of redemption.

This same author also described justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. And then he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

Paul taught eternal security. The loss of salvation view is in direct contrast with his teachings, which are Biblical.

Agreed that it is only His Grace, His Amazing Grace, that saves us.

Ok.

See, when you are asked to explain a passage, you cannot explain that passage by referring to your personal interpretation of two other passages. If you do, we will go nowhere.

Please, when a passage is cited, give some explanation of it according to your own understanding. Then, not only the person you're replying to, but others also, can reply to that, and the discussion can proceed.

Jesus Christ taught it in the passage I quoted to you earlier. Blessed is the servant who continues doing the Lord's Will till He comes. Again, before you claim this contradicts some other passage, first try to give some plausible explanation for it: "43Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." (Luk 12:43-46). Here we see believers who did not persevere in loving their neighbor allotted a portion with the unbelievers, i.e. hell.

And what is your plausible explanation of Mat 18: 32Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.35“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Once more, this passage distinguishes Initial Justification and Final Salvation. Even a single biblical counter-example shows that the Salvation=Justification equation is not correct, and these two passages, from the Lord Himself, show that.

Finally, 2 Pet 1:5-11 taught above explicitly identifies perseverance as required for never stumbling and confirming one's election. Election/Predestinaton to Grace is one thing and Election/Predestination to Glory is another.

The election to grace is through faith. The election to glory is through perseverance in faith and love until the end.

God Bless.

Here are 7 points that prove the Bible teaches eternal security.

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Therefore, the gift of God being eternal life, is irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).
And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

All who have been sealed when they believed, were sealed for the day of redemption.
Therefore, all who have been sealed will be redeemed on the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; which is when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Therefore, those who have been given eternal life (an irrevocable gift of God) will never perish.
In order to NEVER PERISH, one must be given eternal life.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

Therefore, at the moment in time when one believes, they ARE SEALED, they HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and according to the Bible, they WILL NEVER PERISH, but see the day of redemption, the reason for their sealing.

Sixth, 1 Peter 1:23 says “For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.”

Therefore, those who have been born again or regenerated are of IMPERISHABLE SEED, which means they WILL NEVER PERISH, exactly what Jesus promised in John 10:28. (see points 1 and 3)

Seventh, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation, have their eternal life revoked, or that believers may indeed perish in the lake of fire.

We know that "All Scripture is breathed out by God and is profitable for (1) TEACHING, for (2) reproof, for (3) correction, and for (4) training in righteousness". 2 Tim 3:16

If none of the verses above are FOR teaching, then which category do they apply to?

And, IF, any of the verses above are FOR teaching, then what, specifically, do they teach, if not eternal security?

Now, if (since) you don't agree with me, please address each point (one at a time, and one per post if you want) and explain clearly HOW and WHY the verses don't teach eternal security.

Thanks.

Nice post and thank you for understanding me.

May I ask you if you believe Judas Iscariot ever believed at any time, or didn't, and if he did then was he saved or promised anything by Jesus Christ the Son of the living God, despite committing suicide? If not, why?

This is actually quite critical because we don't have any other example like this in the Bible. Depending if Judas was saved or not saved could determine how this conversation goes and impacts Biblical interpretation. Please cite verses if possible.

Was looking to see 1 Corinthians 15 in there which Paul said exactly what the specific points of the gospel are.

Hahahaha. Lol. Ok, we'll do like this. I'll address one of your points, then you'll address one of my passages. Then we go forward like that. Deal?

Let me take your first point.

First

Click to expand...

Let's look at Romans 11 in its full context. Over and over again, Paul tells the Romans that they can fall from the Grace of God: "[20] Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, but fear.

[21] For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee. [22] See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

So what does it say? Because of unbelief Israel was cut off. Christians stand by faith. But we are not to be highminded, but fear. And why? Because we too may not be spared, as He did not spare them. They lost their souls by unbelief, and Paul clearly teaches here that the same can happen to Christians. Just as they were cut off, so can we be also. This refutes OSAS.

So what does it mean that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable? It means that God's promises to Abraham will not fail, and his descendants will one day come to Salvation in Jesus Christ - it does not mean they will be saved in unbelief.

That is clear from the context: "[28] As concerning the gospel, indeed, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are most dear for the sake of the fathers. [29] For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance. [30] For as you also in times past did not believe God, but now have obtained mercy, through their unbelief; [31] So these also now have not believed, for your mercy, that they also may obtain mercy."

As for Justification, Eternal Life etc being Free Gifts of God, no argument there. But your exegesis of irrevocable is wrong for the reasons mentioned above. Paul clearly says Christians can be cut off if we fall into unbelief just like they are currently cut off for their unbelief. The irrevocable part means the covenant will not fail, Abraham's children will one day be saved, by coming to know and love Jesus Christ as their Messiah and Savior.

Now, First, from my side, please explain Mat 18:

Here it is again: 32Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.35“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Why is Jesus Christ saying this? Doesn't He know that OSAS is True!?! Doesn't He know, the servant, once forgiven, cannot be lost? Apparently, He does not. </sarcasm> Rather, He shows us authoritatively being forgiven once is not enough to go to Heaven. In this passage, the Lord Jesus Christ, our God and Savior, refutes or rejects precisely that. God Bless.

ironically, this Doctrine has some of its roots in the Southern Baptist Churches of Southern USA where they were Democrats and KKK Members who hung/murdered people of color and preached God granted them GRACE and Eternal Salvation. i know, i grew up in a Southern Baptist Church.

the funny thing is, Jesus aint even WHITE! Bible describes Him as burnt bronze [very dark] and Josephus said His skin color was almost black. no doubt the Southern Baptist of my youth would have hung Jesus by a short rope and then went to Church shouting and hollaring how Eternally Saved they are.

it's a JOKE Doctrine like you've pointed out and its basically a License to Sin!

Personally , only God knows Judas heart.

Though I wonder if it is betrayal in the true sense? When Jesus told him to go and do what he must do?


Jesus was foreordained before God made this world to be the slain lamb for the sins of our world.

He accomplished that dying on the cross. Our sins covered by his blood.
How did that happen if not for everyone involved? Including Judas.

I don't know. But if it was preplanned by God could Judas have disobeyed?

Note too the account of Simon the sorcerer who believed and was baptized meaning he was saved, but was told to repent or perish because of his sin (Acts 8). Also, the warning to the various churches in Asia in Revelation.