Israel

Jocund · Oct 22, 2022

The difference in interpretation has two parts:

1) The point of reference for "fulness"
2) The meaning of "in part"

It is not necessarily the case that "fulness" here means "the complete set from across all of time". Another possible case is that "fulness" would mean "at capacity" within a frame of reference.

It is not necessarily the case that the size of the "in part" would need to remain constant through that time. In fact, if there were no conversions from blind-true-Israel to Christianity, that "part" would necessarily be increasing if each child of such a person was also considered to be blind-true-Israel.

So how do we determine which cases are more compellingly true? Look at the ramifications of each:

If "fulness" means "a total set from across all time" AND "in part" never shrinks in size, it would mean that according to that interpretation, every person that converted from Talmudic Judaism to Christianity over the last 2000 years wasn't actually Israel. It creates a contradiction with the fact that Paul himself was Israel and converted to Christianity (physically and spiritually have a blindness lifted).

It clearly has been the case that people that counted themselves as religious Jews converted to Christianity. It's completely irreconcilable with your interpretation of that passage.

Nehemiah6 said:

"All Israel" and "All of Israel" are two different things.

presidente · Oct 24, 2022

Jocund said:

That does not make sense. Sure, Gentiles and Jews both come in day by day, but at some point, the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

presidente · Oct 24, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

There is a problem with this pre-trib explanation of things. There are people from various nations saved out of 'great tribulation':

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Beckie · Oct 24, 2022

Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

ForestGreenCook · Oct 24, 2022

oyster67 said:

I believe the scriptures teach that those that God gave to his Son to be a sacrifice to redeem them from their sins was a finished work on the cross, and that there would be no more sacrifice for sins. and Jesus said that he would not lose any of them, but will raise them up at the last day.(John 6:39). They were cleansed by Jesus blood on the cross. God looks upon those that Jesus died for as their sins being as far away as the east is from the west

ForestGreenCook · Oct 24, 2022

Jocund said:

The nation of Israel is not the same as the Israel that is Jacob. God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel. Jacob is representative of all of God's elect people (Rom 9:11). Not all Israel (the nation) is of Jacob/Israel. The remnant of the house of Israel/Jacob are made up of those described in Zeph 3:12-13 - I will also leave in the midst of thee (the house of Israel/Jacob) an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the Lord. The remnant of Israel/Jacob shall do no iniquity, nor speak lies; for they shall feed and lay down, and none shall make them afraid. Both Israel/Jacob and the remnant are saved, being those that God gave to Jesus to redeem them from their sins. on the cross (John 6:39).

ForestGreenCook · Oct 24, 2022

presidente said:

Ungodliness was turned away from the house of Jacob, who's name was changed by God to be called Israel. (Gen 32:28). Jacob represents all of God's elect (Rom 9:11). The remnant of the house of Israel/Jacob are described in Zeph 3:12-13. The house of Israel/Jacob and the remnant are those that 'God gave to his Son to die for redeeming them from their sins. and securing their home in heaven.

ForestGreenCook · Oct 24, 2022

Jocund said:

I don't believe that you are taking into consideration that there are two different Israels referred to in the scriptures. The nation of Israel and Jacob as Israel. God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel (Gen 32:28). Jacob represents all of God's elect (Rom 9:11).

Jocund · Oct 24, 2022

presidente said:

That means you agree that the blindness lifted from Jews does not happen at the end of time all at once. You agree that the blindness is lifted day by day.

presidente · Oct 24, 2022

ForestGreenCook said:

Romans 9:11 does not prove your point. You can't find any verse in the New Testament which uses 'Israel' to include physically uncircumcised Gentile redeemed through faith in Christ Jesus. Abraham is the father in faith, not only to Israel, but also to many nations.

Look at Romans 11.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Does 'Israel' here mean redeemed Jews and Gentiles? Clearly not.

Then Paul continues his commentary on Israel and says:

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

Notice that Paul calls redeemed Gentiles 'Gentiles.'

Also, there is a plan of God seen in song of Moses in Deuteronomy 32, where Israel rebels against God, going off into idolatry and unbelief. God uses Gentiles to provoke them to jealousy and to anger them. But read toward the end and we read, "Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with His people.' So Moses, designates two groups. One is 'His people'-- the inheritance, Israel, spoken of earlier in the chapter. The other is the Gentiles who, through then mysterious means later revealed after Christ was revealed, are put in relationship to God. Paul quotes this verse in Romans 15. He also quotes from this passage in Romans 10, about God using Gentiles to provoke Jews to jealousy. This idea also shows up in Romans 11.

presidente · Oct 24, 2022

Jocund said:

The fullness of the Gentiles coming in stops at some definite point. Calling that only 'day by day' makes no sense. But the Gentiles come in until they all come in. At some point, blindness on Israel ceases and the nation is reconciled. I do not know the date for that in relationship to all other aspects of the end times.

XavierJesusLovesIndia · Oct 24, 2022

Yes, today, the Jews, who don't believe in Jesus Christ, are cut off, sadly, as it says in Rom 9-11. However, the Good News, happily, is that at some time in the future, they will turn to Jesus Christ, acknowledging Him as the True Messiah, and their Lord and Savior, and be saved. And they will do this as an entire nation. If you have a heart for Evangelism of the Jewish people, please see this Great Video, from Tree of Life Ministries in Israel, based on Isa 53, which has some 3.5 Million Views.

Generally, the Messianic Prophecies are very helpful in Evangelism of our Jewish Brothers and Sisters. St. Peter, St. Paul, and even Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, as we read in the Gospels and Acts, made ample use of them, and to very great effect.

The Church Fathers also understood that the Scriptures prophecy a future mass conversion of the Jews to Jesus Christ: "The Old Testament contains several prophecies of the end-times conversion of the Jews. The Prophet Hosea says this: “The children of Israel shall sit many days without king and without prince and without sacrifice, and without altar, and without ephod and without theraphim. And after this the children of Israel shall return, and shall seek the Lord their God and David their king: and they shall fear the Lord, and His goodness in the last days” (3:4-5). There are two parts to this prophesy. The first is that the Jews will be without king, prince, sacrifice, altar, ephod, and theraphim. This is a reference to the loss of civil kingship and sacrificing priesthood among the Jews. Regarding this part of the prophecy, Saint Augustine comments, “Who is there who does not see in this a portrait of the present state of the Jewish people?”

The second part of the prophecy involves the return of the Jews, about which, Saint Augustine says this: “Nothing can be clearer than this prophecy, in which David stands for Jesus Christ [since He], says the Apostle, is born of the line of David, according to the flesh” (cited in The Kingship of Christ and the Conversion of the Jewish Nation, by Father Denis Fahey, pgs. 101-2) … Saint Cyril of Alexandria says this: “Towards the end of time, Our Lord Jesus Christ will effect the reconciliation of His former persecutor Israel with Himself. Everybody who knows Holy Scripture is aware that, in the course of time, this people will return to the love of Christ by the submission of faith[.] … Yes, one day, after the conversion of the Gentiles, Israel will be converted, and the Jews will be astonished at the Treasure they will find in Christ (!) (Commentary on Genesis, Bk. 5)" From: https://onepeterfive.com/messianic-prophecies-evangelization/

God Bless.

Jocund · Oct 24, 2022

ForestGreenCook said:

There is "Israel" as in "Israel/Jacob" the person.

There is "Israel" as in the spiritual collective of people that form the "believing Israel" or "true Israel"

Then there are references to people "of Israel" which are just blood descendants and not necessarily part of true Israel.

There is also the modern usage of "Israel" as a place.

The distinction between "Israel" (the spiritual body) and "of Israel" is the important difference.

All Israel shall be saved. The verse does not say "All of Israel". Bloodlines are not a way of determining whether someone is part of true Israel, the capacity to believe and accept Christ is.

Most of Israel is doomed to be unsaved. Only a remnant is fated to be saved. That is what is meant by "Not all of Israel are Israel"

The big question is whether death would be the point in time that someone's fate is sealed? If that is the case, very many in the modern geopolitical state that calls itself Israel will be unsaved. If it is not the case, many that rejected Jesus Christ in life may have a second chance.

Which is the case? No idea. That's a mystery. You could have 100% of the population of that modern country saved. You could also have 0% of that country saved. Ethnicity doesn't guarantee salvation, faith in Christ does.

Jocund · Oct 24, 2022

presidente said:

It isn't talking about "Israel, the modern country", it is talking about "Israel, the spiritual body". They are different things.

There is part of the spiritual body Israel that is blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. If you agree that blindness is lifted daily (in the conversation of nominal Jews into realized Christians), you agree either that the fulness of the Gentile comes in daily or that "in part" only really means "at least one".

Either way, if you accept that modern Jews convert to Christianity, you have accepted the fact that the blindess is lifted from some Jews all of the time.

Jocund · Oct 24, 2022

ForestGreenCook said:

There is a good question ponder here, and that is whether Gentiles were welcomed into the house of Israel via Jesus (meaning all Christians are the "Israel of God") or whether Israel would exist as a distinct identity within the body of Christ (in the same capacity that an eye has distinctness from an ear).

I think you will find a lot of disagreement on that topic, but I think both perspectives have merit.

Jocund · Oct 24, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

True Jews will turn to Christ. Not all that call themselves Jews will be saved.

XavierJesusLovesIndia · Oct 24, 2022

Jocund said:

Hi Jocund. But in Romans 11:26, it says, All Israel will be Saved. Quoting the full passage below. How do you understand that?

"Romans 11, Revised Standard Version
Israel’s Rejection Is Not Final
11 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Eli′jah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have demolished thy altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Ba′al.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear,
down to this very day.”
9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a pitfall and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs for ever.”
The Salvation of the Gentiles
11 So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness[a] of the olive tree, 18 do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree.
All Israel Will Be Saved
25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. 30 Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may[b] receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for ever. Amen."

Jocund · Oct 24, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

All Israel shall be saved. Not all of Israel are Israel. Not all that call themselves Jews are Jews. Those of Israel will be grafted back in if they abide not in unbelief. "If" is a conditional statement.

Paul uses himself an example about how the promise wasn't in vain. He is stating that Israel is still part of the people of God by referencing himself, a Christian, that has a bloodline that came from Jacob/Israel. Paul points to the fact that "true" Israel is believing Israel, and that all "true" Israel will eventually believe. Paul expresses this when he states that he would save some of his fellow Jews in verse 14 by driving them to jealousy.

We see other passages that talk about the fact that a Jew is not an outward thing (such as outwardly in the flesh), but a spiritual race in the circumcision of the heart. If all true Jews are saved, it is through Christ. If we look at the parable of the wheat and the tares, we can see that outwardly appearance can be deceiving. Satan has spread seeds in the field.

If our theology uses death as the dividing line for when someone can turn to Christ, the uncomfortable implication is that there are a lot of people that call themselves Jews that aren't real Jews. If we instead entertain the idea that salvation could be obtained after death (or in a "life-flashing-before-your-eyes" moment-of-death conversion), it would be more or less impossible to know who is saved and who is unsaved.

The message in Romans 11 is to be patient with nonbelievers because you never know who will turn into a believer by the will and intervention of God. Romans 11 does not state that all that call themselves "Israel" or "Jew" would be saved.

presidente · Oct 24, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

Yes, today, the Jews, who don't believe in Jesus Christ, are cut off, sadly, as it says in Rom 9-11. However, the Good News, happily, is that at some time in the future, they will turn to Jesus Christ, acknowledging Him as the True Messiah, and their Lord and Savior, and be saved. And they will do this as an entire nation. If you have a heart for Evangelism of the Jewish people, please see this Great Video, from Tree of Life Ministries in Israel, based on Isa 53, which has some 3.5 Million Views.

Generally, the Messianic Prophecies are very helpful in Evangelism of our Jewish Brothers and Sisters. St. Peter, St. Paul, and even Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, as we read in the Gospels and Acts, made ample use of them, and to very great effect.

The Church Fathers also understood that the Scriptures prophecy a future mass conversion of the Jews to Jesus Christ: "The Old Testament contains several prophecies of the end-times conversion of the Jews. The Prophet Hosea says this: “The children of Israel shall sit many days without king and without prince and without sacrifice, and without altar, and without ephod and without theraphim. And after this the children of Israel shall return, and shall seek the Lord their God and David their king: and they shall fear the Lord, and His goodness in the last days” (3:4-5). There are two parts to this prophesy. The first is that the Jews will be without king, prince, sacrifice, altar, ephod, and theraphim. This is a reference to the loss of civil kingship and sacrificing priesthood among the Jews. Regarding this part of the prophecy, Saint Augustine comments, “Who is there who does not see in this a portrait of the present state of the Jewish people?”

The second part of the prophecy involves the return of the Jews, about which, Saint Augustine says this: “Nothing can be clearer than this prophecy, in which David stands for Jesus Christ [since He], says the Apostle, is born of the line of David, according to the flesh” (cited in The Kingship of Christ and the Conversion of the Jewish Nation, by Father Denis Fahey, pgs. 101-2) … Saint Cyril of Alexandria says this: “Towards the end of time, Our Lord Jesus Christ will effect the reconciliation of His former persecutor Israel with Himself. Everybody who knows Holy Scripture is aware that, in the course of time, this people will return to the love of Christ by the submission of faith[.] … Yes, one day, after the conversion of the Gentiles, Israel will be converted, and the Jews will be astonished at the Treasure they will find in Christ (!) (Commentary on Genesis, Bk. 5)" From: https://onepeterfive.com/messianic-prophecies-evangelization/

God Bless.

Thank you for sharing that video. It was a bit of a tear-jerker to see the responses of some of the people. I really like how he used scripture to share the Gospel. That one young man said when the name of Yeshua was mentioned, it was like there was a barrier that goes up for Jewish people. Paul described it at a veil.

Philip used Isaiah 53 to share the Gospel also.

presidente · Oct 24, 2022

Jocund said:

Who mentioned 'the modern country.' Israel is a people. There is also a nation state that has a lot of Jewish people... not all there are Jewish and not all Jews are there... called 'Israel', but I didn't mention that aspect of it.

When Paul says Israel hath not obtained what which he seeketh for, does he mean 'spiritual Israel' or 'the church'... no?

The idea that Israel=the church of Christ is nowhere taught in scripture. The Lord made of Jews and Gentiles, together, one new man. Those who believe in 'spiritual Israel' read the idea into various verses, but can't actually show where any scripture uses Israel in this way. 'They are not all Israel that are of Israel' does not say that believing Gentiles are Israel. Paul still calls believing Gentiles, "Gentiles' and quotes scripture that identifies two groups from the Old Testament.

I suspect a rather en masse conversion of some of them later in time, but I don't know the rate at which this will occur.

That's 'blindness in part' being an ongoing thing. It is 'in part' so some Jews are blinded and some aren't. But that blindness lasts until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

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