Israel

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ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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[QUOTE="ForestGreenCook, post: 4954419, member: 272369"
few can interpret it correctly.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


Interpreted it for you. Even a child can understand it.[/QUOTE]


Your interpretation does not harmonize with the other scriptures. All scriptures must harmonize to be the truth.

The "world" in John 3:16 is not the world that we are told not to love in 1 John 2:15, and it is not the world that Jesus would not pray for in John 17:9.

The world in John 3:16 is the "world of believers only".

Heb 12:6 - For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth. Rom 8:9 - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. (these are the world of believers) Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.(these are the world of the wicked that he does not love). If the Lord does not chasten a person, he does not love them.

Psalms 73:5 - They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they "plagued"(divenly punished) like other men. Prov 3:33 - The curse of the Lord is in the house of the wicked, but he blesseth the habitation of the just. (these are the world of the wicked, that he neither loves, nor chastens ).
 

ForestGreenCook

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Do you have a scripture to go with your statement?
Here is a verse along those lines:

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.[/QUOTE]


My post #141 will explain your concerns.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


Interpreted it for you. Even a child can understand it.

Your interpretation does not harmonize with the other scriptures. All scriptures must harmonize to be the truth.

The "world" in John 3:16 is not the world that we are told not to love in 1 John 2:15, and it is not the world that Jesus would not pray for in John 17:9.

The world in John 3:16 is the "world of believers only".
Heb 12:6 - For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth. Rom 8:9 - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. (these are the world of believers) Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.(these are the world of the wicked that he does not love). If the Lord does not chasten a person, he does not love them.

Psalms 73:5 - They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they "plagued"(divenly punished) like other men. Prov 3:33 - The curse of the Lord is in the house of the wicked, but he blesseth the habitation of the just. (these are the world of the wicked, that he neither loves, nor chastens ).[/QUOTE]



1 John 2:2, “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”

That's rather redundant don't you think? You're saying it should say "not only for us, but us too". I don't think so.

Listen here...

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life…” (John 3:36 NIV)

Right here it says there will be those who reject, who do not believe, do not accept the free gift. But that doesn't mean the offer is not to everyone. It is to all with the caveat that they must believe.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Your interpretation does not harmonize with the other scriptures. All scriptures must harmonize to be the truth.

The "world" in John 3:16 is not the world that we are told not to love in 1 John 2:15, and it is not the world that Jesus would not pray for in John 17:9.

The world in John 3:16 is the "world of believers only".
Heb 12:6 - For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth. Rom 8:9 - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. (these are the world of believers) Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.(these are the world of the wicked that he does not love). If the Lord does not chasten a person, he does not love them.

Psalms 73:5 - They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they "plagued"(divenly punished) like other men. Prov 3:33 - The curse of the Lord is in the house of the wicked, but he blesseth the habitation of the just. (these are the world of the wicked, that he neither loves, nor chastens ).


1 John 2:2, “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”

That's rather redundant don't you think? You're saying it should say "not only for us, but us too". I don't think so.

Listen here...

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life…” (John 3:36 NIV)

Right here it says there will be those who reject, who do not believe, do not accept the free gift. But that doesn't mean the offer is not to everyone. It is to all with the caveat that they must believe.[/QUOTE]


I have given evidence that there are two different types of worlds that are referenced in the scriptures, A world of believers and a wicked world that God does not love, and you are still not interpreting them right.

Sure, there are people who reject him, (1 Cor 2:14), those who have not been quickened to the new spiritual life by God's sovereign grace (Eph 2:1-5).

A few, born again, people have been revealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit, the truths in Christ's doctrine, ( the remnant of the household of Israel) and the rest of the born again children, (the household of Israel) such as yourself, are hanging onto the old law of works, such as, believing, accepting, repenting, confessing, etc.

I was in the same position of depending upon works, until I was 62 years old, because I was depending upon my intellect to understand the scripture

Unless you deny your dependence upon your intellect, and admit that you are not smart enough, as I did, after 12 years of diligent studying, The Holy Spirit within you, will not reveal truths to you, lest you take credit for yourself, instead of giving God credit.

You may think that I am being arrogant, but I wasted 12 years of my spiritual life, by being arrogant, before denying myself. I am presently 87 years old.
Unless th
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


Interpreted it for you. Even a child can understand it.

Your interpretation does not harmonize with the other scriptures. All scriptures must harmonize to be the truth.

The "world" in John 3:16 is not the world that we are told not to love in 1 John 2:15, and it is not the world that Jesus would not pray for in John 17:9.

The world in John 3:16 is the "world of believers only".

Heb 12:6 - For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth. Rom 8:9 - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. (these are the world of believers) Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.(these are the world of the wicked that he does not love). If the Lord does not chasten a person, he does not love them.

Psalms 73:5 - They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they "plagued"(divenly punished) like other men. Prov 3:33 - The curse of the Lord is in the house of the wicked, but he blesseth the habitation of the just. (these are the world of the wicked, that he neither loves, nor chastens ).[/QUOTE]
It looks like you want to redefine words selectively to fit your theology.

God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Jesus died for us before we see were walking in the Spirit.

Read the description of some of the early Christians before their conversions-- former theives, drunks, and sexually percerse individuals.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Your interpretation does not harmonize with the other scriptures. All scriptures must harmonize to be the truth.

The "world" in John 3:16 is not the world that we are told not to love in 1 John 2:15, and it is not the world that Jesus would not pray for in John 17:9.

The world in John 3:16 is the "world of believers only".

Heb 12:6 - For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth. Rom 8:9 - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. (these are the world of believers) Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.(these are the world of the wicked that he does not love). If the Lord does not chasten a person, he does not love them.

Psalms 73:5 - They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they "plagued"(divenly punished) like other men. Prov 3:33 - The curse of the Lord is in the house of the wicked, but he blesseth the habitation of the just. (these are the world of the wicked, that he neither loves, nor chastens ).
It looks like you want to redefine words selectively to fit your theology.

God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Jesus died for us before we see were walking in the Spirit.

Read the description of some of the early Christians before their conversions-- former theives, drunks, and sexually percerse individuals.[/QUOTE]



Eternal salvation took place on the cross for every person that Christ died for, ( his elect) from Adam to the last person that will ever be born into this world., and that was not all of mankind, but only
those that God gave to Jesus (John 6:39).

When those of his elect that were born a natural birth this side of the cross, they were born sinners by nature from Adam's sin, full of wrath, even as others, and all of them will be borne spiritually, before they die their natural death.
 

ForestGreenCook

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It looks like you want to redefine words selectively to fit your theology.

I don't feel that I am redefining the scriptures. The scriptures prove themselves, by harmonizing with each other.

All scriptures must be figured into the truth, without discarding any of them.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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I don't feel that I am redefining the scriptures. The scriptures prove themselves, by harmonizing with each other.

All scriptures must be figured into the truth, without discarding any of them.
You don't have a leg, Biblically, to stand on, on this issue.

Others have quoted this:
I John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.(NIV)

I don't see why what the Bible presents here is such a problem for you, that you would seek to redefine 'world' to mean something else different in a few verses to mean something else from what it means in similar scriptures.

Why is the idea that Christ died for all men, but that only those who repent and believe the Gospel receive the benefit of it? Even within a heavily deterministic view of creation, that can still work? If someone put an 'L' in TULIP several hundred years ago, why come up with contorted interpretations of scripture to support the 'L'? Just accept what scripture teaches.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Romans 9:6 - What is your interpretation of this scripture? Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.
Paul is referencing the prophet Isaiah and Hosea as he often does instead of just looking at the one verse

“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:6-8‬ ‭

“even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee,( Hosea )

I will call them my people, which were not my people; And her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; There shall they be called the children of the living God. ( see God was always saying I’m going to do a different thing than I had done )

Esaias ( Isaiah ) also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: for he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

And as Esaias ( Isaiah) said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:24-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God warned and warned them eventually he declared he would end them but spare a small remnant the early church would be saved

“Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭1:7, 9-10, 13-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD. For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.”
‭‭Amos‬ ‭9:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when Jesus came to wash away thier sins they didn’t accept it instead they condemned him to death

“But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord's doing, And it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:37-43‬ ‭

being born of Israeli flesh doesn’t mean anything anymore is the point you can be born of African flesh or Israeli flesh and it makes no difference to you all that matters what makes a person an Israelite is to be born of Jesus Christ the seed of Abraham by faith

the flesh identity doesn’t matter or define us now jew gentile is no difference now believer and non believer is the only distinction between mankind now israel believes the world doesn’t
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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You don't have a leg, Biblically, to stand on, on this issue.

Others have quoted this:
I John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.(NIV)

I don't see why what the Bible presents here is such a problem for you, that you would seek to redefine 'world' to mean something else different in a few verses to mean something else from what it means in similar scriptures.

Why is the idea that Christ died for all men, but that only those who repent and believe the Gospel receive the benefit of it? Even within a heavily deterministic view of creation, that can still work? If someone put an 'L' in TULIP several hundred years ago, why come up with contorted interpretations of scripture to support the 'L'? Just accept what scripture teaches.

To rightly divide the word, you must include all of the scriptures, and they must harmonize.

Compare the word "world" in John 3:16, that God loves to the following scriptures, and tell me it it is the same world that God loves:

John 14:17 - Even the Spirit of truth, whom THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE. Is this the same world as that of John 3:16?

John 15:18 -19- If the WORLD hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world the world would love his own, but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Is this the same world that hated Jesus, as the world that God loves in John 3:16?

John 16:19-20 - Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do you inquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me, and again, a little while and ye shall see me? Verily, Verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the WORLD shall rejoice, and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

John 17:9 - I pray not for the WORLD, but to them thou hast given me, for they are thine.

John 17:14 - I have given them the word, and the WORLD harh hated them, because they are not of the WORLD, even as I am not of the WORLD.

Rom 12:2 - And be not conformed to this WORLD.

1 Cor 11:32 - But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the WORLD.

Gal 1:4 - Who gave himself for us, that he might deliver us from this present evil WORLD.

Eph 6:12 - For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this WORLD. against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Col 2:8 - Beware, lest any man spoil you through philosophy, and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the WORLD, and not after Christ.

James 4:4 - Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the WORLD is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the WORLD is the enemy of God.

2 Pet 2:5 - And spared not the old WORLD, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing the flood upon the WORLD of the ungodly.

1 John 2:15 - Love not the WORLD, neither the things that are in the WORLD, If any man love the WORLD, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 John 3:13 - Marvel not, my brethren, if the WORLD hate you.

1 John 4:5-6 - Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the WORLD. They are of the WORLD, therefore speak they of the WORLD, and the WORLD heareth them.

1 John 5:19 - And we know we are of God, and the whole WORLD lieth in wickedness.


How can you deny that there is a different WORLD, than the WORLD in John 3:16?



Why is it so hard for you to understand that Jesus died to redeem only those people that his Father gave to him, as stated in John 6:37-40? Why is it that you deny that Jesus said that he would not lose any of them, but would raise them up at the last day?
 
Jan 14, 2021
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you must include all of the scriptures, and they must harmonize.
Exegesis. And I agree.

John 14:17 - Even the Spirit of truth, whom THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE. Is this the same world as that of John 3:16?
Very interesting comparison.

John 14:17 basically states that believers exist in a state that isn't of this world. And if we include John 18:36, we see that Christ's kingdom is also not of this world.

We could still take the approach that John 3:16 is talking about the same earthly world (cosmos), with the concept that by Christ coming into the world, the old creature transforms into the new creature (the new creature being in a state that isn't of the earthly world).

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16 KJV

"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." - John 14:17 KJV

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." - John 14:17 KJV

I haven't done a deep look at this yet, so maybe you can point out if there is some flaw with my approach. But at a first impression, it looks like God loving the earthly world wouldn't contradict that concept that the new creature formed from people of the earthly world. I think it would be fair to say that each instance of these references to the world (cosmos) is talking about the same plane of existence.

1 John 2:15 - Love not the WORLD, neither the things that are in the WORLD, If any man love the WORLD, the love of the Father is not in him.
This is where I'm not sure. Is it permissible for God to love the world but not for us to love the world? Seemingly that is maybe a solution. But I think there is room for discussion with how this compares to John 3:16.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that Jesus died to redeem only those people that his Father gave to him
"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." - Heb 9:26 KJV

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" - Eph 1:4 KJV

These passages would indicate that Christians were chosen (to be called in Christ, etc.) before the foundation of the world. The total that the Father had given would then be inclusive of all time and not just retroactive to the point of the crucifixion.

I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on this though. What's your take on this?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Paul is referencing the prophet Isaiah and Hosea as he often does instead of just looking at the one verse

“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:6-8‬ ‭

“even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee,( Hosea )

I will call them my people, which were not my people; And her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; There shall they be called the children of the living God. ( see God was always saying I’m going to do a different thing than I had done )

Esaias ( Isaiah ) also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: for he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

And as Esaias ( Isaiah) said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:24-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God warned and warned them eventually he declared he would end them but spare a small remnant the early church would be saved

“Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭1:7, 9-10, 13-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD. For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.”
‭‭Amos‬ ‭9:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when Jesus came to wash away thier sins they didn’t accept it instead they condemned him to death

“But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord's doing, And it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:37-43‬ ‭

being born of Israeli flesh doesn’t mean anything anymore is the point you can be born of African flesh or Israeli flesh and it makes no difference to you all that matters what makes a person an Israelite is to be born of Jesus Christ the seed of Abraham by faith

the flesh identity doesn’t matter or define us now jew gentile is no difference now believer and non believer is the only distinction between mankind now israel believes the world doesn’t

God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel (Gen 32:28). Jacob represents God's elect people (Rom 9:11)

The house of Israel (Jacob) turned away from God, and God chastened them, but there was a remnant of the house of Israel/Jacob that were a poor and afflicted people that were left in the midst of the house of Israel that trusted in the name of the Lord and did no iniquity, nor speak lies, nor shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth, for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Both the house of Israel/Jacob, and the remnant of the house of Israel/Jacob, are those that God gave to Jesus to redeem them from their sins, and secured them an inheritance of heaven by his death on the cross. (John 6:37-40).

Some of the nation of Israel are not included in the house of Israel/Jacob. (all Israel/nation is not of Israel/Jacob - Rom 9:6).
 

ForestGreenCook

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We could still take the approach that John 3:16 is talking about the same earthly world (cosmos), with the concept that by Christ coming into the world, the old creature transforms into the new creature (the new creature being in a state that isn't of the earthly world).

Then would not that make the World in John 3:16, the world of believers only? And not the unregenerate?
 
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Then would not that make the World in John 3:16, the world of believers only? And not the unregenerate?
I believe it would be fair to say that at the point where Jesus was sent (prior to crucifixion) that the entire world was unregenerated.

If we compare this to the parable of the wheat and tares, the fruit of the wheat requires Christ in order to form. And despite the wheat having an inherent nature to produce this fruit (the new creature), it could not happen prior to Christ.

I think John 3:16 would be talking about the world of nonbelievers.

I still haven't had a chance to really deeply examine this. Do you see a flaw?
 

ForestGreenCook

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Exegesis. And I agree.



Very interesting comparison.

John 14:17 basically states that believers exist in a state that isn't of this world. And if we include John 18:36, we see that Christ's kingdom is also not of this world.

We could still take the approach that John 3:16 is talking about the same earthly world (cosmos), with the concept that by Christ coming into the world, the old creature transforms into the new creature (the new creature being in a state that isn't of the earthly world).

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16 KJV

"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." - John 14:17 KJV

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." - John 14:17 KJV

I haven't done a deep look at this yet, so maybe you can point out if there is some flaw with my approach. But at a first impression, it looks like God loving the earthly world wouldn't contradict that concept that the new creature formed from people of the earthly world. I think it would be fair to say that each instance of these references to the world (cosmos) is talking about the same plane of existence.



This is where I'm not sure. Is it permissible for God to love the world but not for us to love the world? Seemingly that is maybe a solution. But I think there is room for discussion with how this compares to John 3:16.



"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." - Heb 9:26 KJV

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" - Eph 1:4 KJV

These passages would indicate that Christians were chosen (to be called in Christ, etc.) before the foundation of the world. The total that the Father had given would then be inclusive of all time and not just retroactive to the point of the crucifixion.

I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on this though. What's your take on this?

First of all, I appreciate your open mind, and your willingness to discuss the scriptures thoughtfully, and calmly without the hostility that I usually get. I do realise that the doctrine that I teach is a mystery, and hard to understand, but with the revelation of the Holy Spirit, that we might be able to reason together to glean the truths of the scriptures.

In my understanding of the scriptures, I believe them to teach that those that god has given to Jesus, to redeem them from their sins, are the same ones that he choose before the foundation of the world in Eph 1:4, and that the scope of that redemption covered all of his elect from among those from Adam to the last elect person to be born by natural birth on earth.

Jesus, being God's only begotten Son, and God's elect being his adopted children, and predetermined by God that his Son would pay the adoption price on the cross, (John 6:37-40) and that his Son will accomplish the last phase of the adoption by bringing his elected adopted children home at the last day (Mark 13:23).

I do believe in the complete harmony of the scriptures before we can understand the truths contained in the doctrine that Jesus taught, and will admit that I do not understand the meaning of some scriptures, but am open to learn, so feel free to react to my comments, with the intention that we both might be enlightened to learn more fully of Jesus doctrine.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Strange corn.

You want to go back to OT and cite the nation of Israel? Ok...

All "Israel" will be saved, but not all jews will be in that number:

Romans 11:26
“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”

Looks like all Jews go to Heaven, but...

Romans 9:6 Context
3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Only those who lay hold on that promise shall enter in. We gentiles have opportunity to lay hold on that promise and become the seed of Abraham:


Galatians 3:29 Context
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I believe that the scriptures teach that Jacob as Israel (God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel Gen 32:28) is comprised of people from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9)
 

ForestGreenCook

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I believe it would be fair to say that at the point where Jesus was sent (prior to crucifixion) that the entire world was unregenerated.

If we compare this to the parable of the wheat and tares, the fruit of the wheat requires Christ in order to form. And despite the wheat having an inherent nature to produce this fruit (the new creature), it could not happen prior to Christ.

I think John 3:16 would be talking about the world of nonbelievers.

I still haven't had a chance to really deeply examine this. Do you see a flaw?

It is my understanding that being born again happens to all of God's elect in the same manner, and that is by God's sovereign grace by putting the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within every newborn babe in Christ, from Adam to the last person to be born on earth.

Isaiah 63:11 - Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he that put his holy Spirit within him.

It is my understanding that the scriptures teach that "the kingdom of heaven" has reference to Christ's church, among several other names that his church is called.

Correct me, if you think otherwise.
 

Pilgrimshope

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God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel (Gen 32:28). Jacob represents God's elect people (Rom 9:11)

The house of Israel (Jacob) turned away from God, and God chastened them, but there was a remnant of the house of Israel/Jacob that were a poor and afflicted people that were left in the midst of the house of Israel that trusted in the name of the Lord and did no iniquity, nor speak lies, nor shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth, for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Both the house of Israel/Jacob, and the remnant of the house of Israel/Jacob, are those that God gave to Jesus to redeem them from their sins, and secured them an inheritance of heaven by his death on the cross. (John 6:37-40).

Some of the nation of Israel are not included in the house of Israel/Jacob. (all Israel/nation is not of Israel/Jacob - Rom 9:6).
God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel (Gen 32:28). Jacob represents God's elect people (Rom 9:11)

yeah NOw add this revelation in

“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:

but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

doeasnt this very simple statement tell you there is an israel identified by thy flesh and blood descendants of Israel ? And they aren’t the elect ? But instead God has counted the children of the promise as his seed and his heir ?

right can you acknowledge there are two definitions form israel the flesh children ( abrams) offspring , (Jacobs’s )descendants the nation we recognize as isreal

and hen there’s another definition according to Gods word ? Can you acknowledge that isn’t the flesh and blood that identifies isreal ? But instead it’s receiving Gods spirit that identifies them ?

this verse is all you would have to acknowledge for that

“they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:

but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Can you acknowledge that being born of abrams Hebrew blood doesn’t make a person an Israelite to God ? And instead it’s this ?

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If your wondering what Abraham has to do with it God renamed Abraham and then renamed his grandson Jacob based on the same messiah and same promise of the gospel

to be the seed of Abraham is what defines Israel and to be the seed of Abraham one needs to accept the gospel whether they used to be a gentile or used to be a Jew doesn’t have any effect whatsoever on thier status with God

what defines thier relationship and status with God whether a Jew or gentile is to accept Christ the messiah given to Israel fornthier salvation

if an Israelite rejects Jesus they can’t be saved and can’t belong to God if anyone a Jew or a gentile accepts Christ that makes them the elect of God or in other words Gods israel born of his spirit and washed in his blood

this world is doomed Webhave a better home and a better Jerusalem look up and not at the worldly Jerusalem

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13-14, 16‬

That city isn’t on earth inhabited by fleshly people

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬

glory is on high and Jesus hasn’t promised us a broken and desolate nation but instead a true home

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 13‬ ‭

new people not defined by flesh and blood but by his spirit , a new heaven and new earth where we will reign a we were meant to in the beginning a new covenant creating all these things of faith

Israel can be saved and so can anyone who believes the gospel that’s all that matters now our skin doesn’t our blood doesn’t our flesh doesn’t but his spirit does that’s how israel
Is truly born by the flesh and the blood of Jesus Christ

“His body and his blood his name “ not my body and my blood or my name “

Jacob is of the flesh israel
Of the spirit

just like we’re called to new identities from the old

“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭

we have a new name also we’re called the children and heirs of God and what flesh we are born from has no bearing
 

presidente

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To rightly divide the word, you must include all of the scriptures, and they must harmonize.

Compare the word "world" in John 3:16, that God loves to the following scriptures, and tell me it it is the same world that God loves:

John 14:17 - Even the Spirit of truth, whom THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE. Is this the same world as that of John 3:16?

John 15:18 -19- If the WORLD hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world the world would love his own, but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Is this the same world that hated Jesus, as the world that God loves in John 3:16?

John 16:19-20 - Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do you inquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me, and again, a little while and ye shall see me? Verily, Verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the WORLD shall rejoice, and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

John 17:9 - I pray not for the WORLD, but to them thou hast given me, for they are thine.

John 17:14 - I have given them the word, and the WORLD harh hated them, because they are not of the WORLD, even as I am not of the WORLD.

Rom 12:2 - And be not conformed to this WORLD.

1 Cor 11:32 - But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the WORLD.

Gal 1:4 - Who gave himself for us, that he might deliver us from this present evil WORLD.

Eph 6:12 - For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this WORLD. against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Col 2:8 - Beware, lest any man spoil you through philosophy, and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the WORLD, and not after Christ.

James 4:4 - Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the WORLD is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the WORLD is the enemy of God.

2 Pet 2:5 - And spared not the old WORLD, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing the flood upon the WORLD of the ungodly.

1 John 2:15 - Love not the WORLD, neither the things that are in the WORLD, If any man love the WORLD, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 John 3:13 - Marvel not, my brethren, if the WORLD hate you.

1 John 4:5-6 - Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the WORLD. They are of the WORLD, therefore speak they of the WORLD, and the WORLD heareth them.

1 John 5:19 - And we know we are of God, and the whole WORLD lieth in wickedness.


How can you deny that there is a different WORLD, than the WORLD in John 3:16?
John 15:19,
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Christians were once a part of the world, and come out of the world into the kingdom of God.

If the 'world' referenced i John 3:16 were already righteous, why would Jesus have to die for their sins?
John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Look at verse 16. God loves the world. But does the whole world receive everlasting life? No, only those who belive in the Son.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that Jesus died to redeem only those people that his Father gave to him, as stated in John 6:37-40? Why is it that you deny that Jesus said that he would not lose any of them, but would raise them up at the last day?
And you refer to a passage of scripture that does not prove your point. Let's look at it.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Again. Them that believe on the Son have everlasting life. It doesn't say the whole world receives everlasting life.

It's not 'hard to understand' that there are people who overthink passages and use convoluted human reasoning to argue that if Jesus died for the whole world, that the whole world would be saved. But that is not what scripture teaches. Scripture teaches that Christ is the propitiation not just for us, but for the whole world (I John 2:2.) This contradicts the convoluted arguments I have seen for limited atonement. Just accept what the scripture teaches.

Let's think about the value of Christ's sacrifice. Was it limited in value, only valuable enough for the elect, or was it so incredibly valuable, that it was more valuable than the sins of the unregenerate as well? You should realize that limited atonement implies limited value of Christ's sacrifice as well.