Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

Hi EG.

What the passage shows is that initial deliverance is not the same as final entrance into the Promised Land. So also, Initial Justification is not the same as Final Salvation. OSAS claims Salvation=Justification. This is what non-OSASers deny. Salvation is not equal to Justification, but is only begun by it. Salvation=Justification+Sanctification+Perseverance.

As for whether they were saved or not, they most probably were justified. Paul even says they "were baptized into Moses" in a sense, and in the NT, we know those who believe and are baptized are justified. In addition, if they were never justified, God would not have given them of the spiritual Rock to drink of, which St. Paul says typified Christ, who gives His body and blood to eat and drink of in the NT. But they backslid, commited various sins, and most were lost. The entirety of all this argues against OSAS. In fact, Paul concludes with an admonition that he who thinks he stands should take heed lest he fall. Again, a clear indication that just as Eternal Security was not true in the OT, neither is it under the NT.

Here's the full passage in 1 Corinthians 10 for us to study: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/1_corinthians/10.htm

"Old Testament Examples
1Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3all ate the same spiritual food, 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” 8Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9nor let us [a]tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our [c]admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to [d]bear it."

Also, the Lord speaks of this when He says, most of those who ate manna went to death, but he who continually eats the Bread of Life that He will give them will have Eternal Life. The reference is most probably to Eternal Death, or soul loss.

Jn 6:56 "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

By the way, the word trogon τρώγων (trōgōn) (eats/feeds on Me) signifies a continuous action, the same word as in: Mat 24:38: "they were eating and drinking". It shows again Salvation is not a one time thing. God instituted all these with a purpose, Baptism, Holy Communion etc. With faith and love, we must receive these, and pray and wait for final salvation.

God Bless.

Thank you

if salvation is not equal to justification. then no one is saved. and no one has eternal life

Justified in the greek is a legal term. It means you are freed from guilt. or that your penalty was paid.

Jesus said paid in full on the cross.

He is your only hope..

Non osasers believe it is the cross plus.

that's where they are mistaken.

It is the cross alone..

the penalty of sin is death. Jesuy took that penalty and nailed it to the cross

Now the gift of God is eternal life.. But ONLY through Jesus.

OSAS (true) recieve that gift in total trust in God

NOSAS says they will take that gift, yet they then try to earn it..

thank him for what?

More misunderstanding? more works? More self righteousnness? More thinking you can meet Gods standard? More cross plus??

I feel sorry for all those who will see Christ and boast of their works when he says why should I let you in..

How do you “place your faith” in Jesus Christ?

The way faith comes to us, is by hearing His word, hearing His voice speak to us.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:16-17


Faith comes to us from God. Why would you give it back to Him, or place the faith you have received from Him back in Him.


Makes no sense.


Do you understand how we obey the Gospel; what it means to obey the Gospel that you hear?



JLB

You just answered your own question. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) That's how we place our faith in Jesus Christ (for salvation).

Who said anything about giving back to God the faith He gives us?!?! Do you worker bees strive to be idiots or does it just comes naturally?

By worker bees are you referring to men made in the image and likeness of God?

No, the exact opposite. Those who refuse to acknowledge grace is an unmerited gift, but instead try to earn their salvation. Does that sound familiar to you? It should.

Here's another thing with OSAS. It commits the fallacy of equivocation: "In logic, equivocation ("calling two different things by the same name") is an informal fallacy resulting from the use of a particular word/expression in multiple senses within an argument.[1][2]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation At one and the same time, they use "saved" to refer both to initial justification and final salvation. They may not even recognize they are doing this, but they are. And it leads to error.

Take an example. Was King David saved when he committed adultery and murder? Now, the Word of God says adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom of God, and no murderer has Eternal Life abiding in him. Hence, given their equivocation on justification and salvation, some OSASers may even say "David was never saved till then, because saved people don't do that!"

That is an incorrect way of thinking about the matter. There is no doubt that David was forgiven, justified and indwelt by the Holy Spirit from his youth, for e.g. when he triumphed over Goliath. Now, to be forgiven/justified is a grace, and therefore Salvation is a Grace, since no one can be saved without being forgiven/justified. Likewise, no one can earn/deserve the Holy Spirit, hence no one can deserve Salvation. But what happened when David committed adultery and murder? He committed a deadly or grave sin for which he knew God could take His Holy Spirit from him. Hence he prayed, in inspired Scripture. Psa 51:

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not Thy Holy Spirit from me. 12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy Free Spirit.

Notice David didn't say, I am justified, ergo I am saved, ergo (therefore) I am OSAS, therefore I don't need to repent at all.

David's earlier little sins were forgiven the first time he received the Holy Spirit. Now, after he grieved the Holy Spirit and knew the Holy Spirit could be taken from him, he had to repent much more painfully and strive harder to overcome his sin.

So also, falling into deliberate, willful sin is a very bad thing, once one has had one's former sins forgiven. We are not speaking of light, indeliberate sins committed out of mere weakness. David explained this also in the Psalms. Now, after David had sinned in this manner, for some time he remained fallen from Grace and without the Holy Spirit. Then Nathan the Prophet had to go in the Name of the Lord and boldly rebuke the fallen King. Then David, correctly, repented of his sin and recovered Grace and received the Holy Spirit again. He was re-justified and thus returned to the way of salvation.

1 Jn 1:9 and 1 Jn 2:1 show us similar things. If we have the misfortune to fall into grave, willful sin, we must confess and repent of it to return to God's Salvation. If by God's Grace, we avoid sin, as David avoided it after this incident, then we remain in the Grace of God, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And thus on the way of salvation, and will be saved when we die.

The passages in 1 Jn for reflection:

1 Jn 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Jn 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

1 Jn 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

When God's Spirit dwells in you, He gives you the divine power to sin as little as possible, and seek forgiveness when we do sin. God Bless.

We need to get something straight. OSAS doesn't have action, like verbs do. It does nothing. It is a biblical principle.

The principle is simple: those who have believed, ARE sealed (Eph 1:13, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5), HAVE eternal life (John 5:24) and shall NEVER PERISH (John 10:28).

Those who don't believe the doctrine of eternal security cannot possibly believe any of the verses I have cited.

The real error here is your claim that there is a difference between "initial justification" and "final salvation".

The Bible is clear that at the MOMENT of saving faith, the believer has eternal life (John 5:24) and shall NEVER PERISH (John 10:28).

So being "saved means both justification and salvation. There is no such thing as "initial" and "final" as if there are things inbetween that can jepardize either one.

The "some" that say that are idiots and just don't really know the Bible.

And your error is your terrible misunderstanding of 1 John 3:15 and failure to understand what John meant by "abiding". To John, who was present when Jesus taught the words of John 15:1-5 about bearing fruit ONLY IF they were abiding in Him and He in them, refers to a reciprocal relationship, which amounts to fellowship.

iow, the only way a believer can bear fruit that will be rewarded is by "abiding in Him and He in them". All other fruit bearing is simply work from human good, which smells like a used menstral rag, per Isa 64:6, to God.

Rather, notice that David CONFESSED his sins to God. Psa 32:5, Psa 38:18 and Psa 51.

Rather, he confessed his sins to God and was cleansed of his sins. 1 John 1:9

1John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?


Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

You have been warned.

Sorry but the old "everything except eternal security = works" doesn't fly. That's all I have to say about it.

A lot of hyperbole there, my friend, but thanks for the unnecessary warning anyway.

That has nothing to do with what your faith is in, Like i said there is 2 options yourself or Jesus, And Salvation is not by works

But why doesn't it say: "Those who are saved will endure to the end"? That's what Calvinist OSAS claims (Free Grace OSAS claims Perseverance to the End is not necessary for Salvation). Yes, Perseverance is a Grace of God/Jesus, non-OSASers don't deny that. It is Christ's Spirit living in us Who enables us to persevere to the end in faith and love. But persevere we must.

God Bless.

Here are the verses on perseverance again:

Mat 24:12-13: "12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Those who grow cold in love toward Christ, because of the increase of iniquity/wickedness, will not be saved. Those who by God's grace persevere in faith and love toward Christ till the end will be saved. That's what this passage says.

Rom 2:6 "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"

Patient continuance is just another way of saying persistence/perseverance. This passage also shows that one is supposed to continually and faithfully do good, seeking glory and immortality etc, and God will give you eternal life.

1 Tim 4:16: "Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."

See how different is the doctrine of Christ and Paul from the doctrine of modern OSASers. Paul says you can and should strive to persevere and by doing this God will help you save your soul, and you can help others also attain salvation.

OSAS only really works under Calvinist TULIP, particularly Total Depravity, which claims man cannot really do anything good. And that is a fallacy, and contrary to virtually the entire Bible, especially if we're speaking of the justified. smh.

God Bless.

It is no error, as I've shown from numerous verses. The unforgiving servant is one of the clearest. Justification!=Salvation.

Mat 18:32 "Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him."

The Lord clearly says this Servant was (1) at first forgiven/justified, (2) at last finally not saved/lost. So He proves the 2 are distinct. This is the Doctrine of Christ. You can either accept it or resist it, but it will be true.

Are non-OSASers saying unforgiveness is unforgivable? Not at all. He just had to confess and repent of it, and he would have been saved. But he never did, and thus he was lost. It really is that simple. And if you can't see it, I'm sorry.

As for Sealing, Sealing refers to an External/Visible Sign/Symbol like Circumcision in the OT and Baptism in the NT.

Reference: "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised." (Rom 4:11).

Similarly, in the NT, believers have been sealed when we were baptized into Christ and received the Holy Spirit. As it says in Acts 2:38-39: "38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Placing your faith in Christ, with love for Him, brings you to Forgiveness or Justification, yes, that's 100% true.

Here's another verse on that, see how the Lord speaks of faith and love together on the woman devoutly weeping at His Feet: "47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”

48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

49 The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Her faith saved her, because she loved much. Faith in Christ and love for Him go together, and together obtain forgiveness.

I already answered this. This does not apply to apostates etc who don't faithfully follow Christ, who do faithfully follow Him. The Lord said those who do not take up their Cross and follow Him cannot be His disciples, and those who are not His disciples cannot be saved. 2 Pet 1:5-11 says you are do certain things, like add love to faith etc, and then you will never stumble. That's what this passage also means. People want to change the doctrine of Christ to what is easy for them.

The unforgiving servant and other examples prove otherwise. Initial Deliverance from Egypt (sin) was not the same as Final Entrance into the Promised Land (Paradise/Heaven).

There is no misunderstanding. Murderers do not have Eternal Life. If they once had it, they lost it by the sin of murder.

David understood this when he sinned by adultery and murder. Hence he asked the Lord not to take His Holy Spirit away.

Yes, only supernatural or Spirit-Filled Good Works have Eternal Rewards, that's true. However, read what Isa 64 is saying in context, and you will see it is about those who continue to sin. "when we continued to sin against them, you were angry". Also, those who did not call on the Name of the Lord: "No one calls on your name or strives to lay hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us and have given us over to our sins." (vs 5 and vs 7)

Now, read Cornelius in Acts 10. Even though he was not yet a Christian, God accepted his prayers, alms etc. Those could not justify him, but because he was praying diligently and giving alms, God sent an Angel, and then Peter, to bring him to faith in Christ and save him. Here also we have the answer as to how someone who faithfully seeks God but does not yet know Christ will be saved. God will, if they persevere in doing good and seeking Him, send someone to teach them about Christ, so they can be saved. Natural good works don't have Eternal Rewards. But they are still good and are not sins.

Yes, and in his prayer, he asked God, not to take His Holy Spirit away. He knew his sins could separate him from God.

Yes, and because he confessed, he was forgiven and saved. The unforgiving servant did not and so, after being once justified, lost his soul and was not saved. Being forgiven and going to Heaven are not the same thing. Those who die forgiven are saved and will go to Heaven.

In Christ,
Xavier.

Okay, thanks for your input.

Because it should never say what you think it should say because you are not the truth, it is he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ, so to persevere is to not deny the truth or the faith, so how do you persevere

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.