Was the Pharaoh of Exodus predestined for damnation?

So as God was forming Pharaoh, God knew how he would be used for His glory. So for all intents and purposes Pharaoh WAS predestined.

So you are suggesting that God made Pharaoh evil in spite of himself? In that case sinners can never be held accountable for their sin and wickedness and Pharaoh could not be condemned.

There is a big difference between being "predestined" or being "foreknown" to God. Of course God -- in His divine foreknowledge -- knows the end from the beginning, and He knows who will repent and who will not. At the same time God commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent. Which means that He desires the repentance of all and He desires the salvation of all.

When Pharaoh's own magicians said -- after the plague of lice -- "this is the finger of God" (Exod 8:19), that should have immediately brought Pharaoh to his senses. Instead the Bible says that "Pharaoh hardened his heart" not "God hardened Pharaoh's heart". These magicians understood at this point that the LORD God Almighty was at work. And so did Pharaoh.

2. God knows the end from the beginning, so God knew every decision he would make before he made them.

This is your interpretation of that verse. God knows the end from the beginning. He knows that he will rule and reign over all creation.

This is what we know. God told Nineveh that he was going to destroy them in 40 days. God did not destroy them in 40 days. Why? 10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. Either God lied, or God changed his mind.

God told Hezekiah to set his house in order because he was going to die. Hezekiah prayed. God changed his mind and allowed him to live another 15 years. Either God lied, or God changed his mind.

So the case you are going to try and make is that God who sits outside of time, looking down into a finite time, who inhabits eternity, didn’t know that Nineveh would repent?

The entire episode was to demonstrate that God responds to repentant hearts.

And BTW, Job himself knew God was going to repent from destroying them. So Job knew what God was going to do but God didn’t know what He was going to do?

Yes! God responds to repentant hearts. I'm saying, that God has the authority to allow man to make decisions when faced with his word, and he chooses not to know until the thought or choice is made. God has chosen to limit his knowledge and to work within the time frame he himself has created.

Is God a liar? Did God know ahead of time that Nineveh would repent, and in turn he would not destroy them? If yes, then you make God a liar.

Of course God knows the end from the beginning. We can now read Revelation and know the end of all things. God knew these things from the beginning.

I'm allowing the bible to be as honest as possible.

Ok. Have to give ya the nuts and bolts of the God repenteth stuff:

Excellent explanation from Gotquestions here:

Does God change His mind?

ANSWER


Malachi 3:6 declares, “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.” Similarly, James 1:17 tells us, “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.” Numbers 23:19 is clear: “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?” Based on these verses, no, God does not change. God is unchangingand unchangeable. He is also all-wise. So He cannot “change His mind” in the sense of realizing a mistake, backtracking, and trying a new tack.

How then do we explain verses that seem to say that God does change His mind? Verses such as Genesis 6:6, “The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain.” Also, Exodus 32:14 proclaims, “Then the LORD relented and did not bring on His people the disaster He had threatened.” These verses speak of the Lord “repenting” or “relenting” of something and seem to contradict the doctrine of God’s immutability.

Another passage that is often used to show that God changes His mind is the story of Jonah. Through His prophet, God had told Nineveh He would destroy the city in forty days (Jonah 3:4). However, Nineveh repented of their sin (verses 5–9). In response to the Assyrians’ repentance, God relented: “He had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction He had threatened” (verse 10).

There are two important considerations involving the passages that say God changed His mind. First, we can say statements such as “the LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth” (Genesis 6:6) are examples of anthropopathism (or anthropopatheia). Anthropopathism is a figure of speech in which the feelings or thought processes of finite humanity are ascribed to the infinite God. It’s a way to help us understand God’s work from a human perspective. In Genesis 6:6 specifically, we understand God’s sorrow over man’s sin. God obviously did not reverse His decision to create man. The fact that we are alive today is proof that God did not “change His mind” about the creation.

Second, we must make a distinction between conditional declarations of God and unconditionaldeterminations of God. In other words, when God said, “I will destroy Nineveh in forty days,” He was speaking conditionally upon the Assyrians’ response. We know this because the Assyrians repented and God did not, in fact, mete out the judgment. God did not change His mind; rather, His message to Nineveh was a warning meant to provoke repentance, and His warning was successful.

An example of an unconditional declaration of God is the Lord’s promise to David, “Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever” (2 Samuel 7:16). There is no qualification expressed or implied in this declaration. No matter what David did or did not do, the word of the Lord would come to pass.

God tells us of the cautionary nature of some of His declarations and the fact that He will act in accordance with our choices: “If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it. Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions’” (Jeremiah 18:7– 11). Note the conditional word if: “If that nation I warned repents [like Assyria in Jonah 3] . . . then I will relent.” Conversely, God may tell a nation they will be blessed, but “if it does evil in my sight [like Israel in Micah 1] . . . then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do.”

The bottom line is that God is entirely consistent. In His holiness, God was going to judge Nineveh. However, Nineveh repented and changed its ways. As a result, God, in His holiness, had mercy on Nineveh and spared them. This “change of mind” is entirely consistent with His character. His holiness did not waver one iota.

Ok. Have to give ya the nuts and bolts of the God repenteth stuff:

Excellent explanation from Gotquestions here:

Does God change His mind?

ANSWER


Malachi 3:6 declares, “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.” Similarly, James 1:17 tells us, “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.” Numbers 23:19 is clear: “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?” Based on these verses, no, God does not change. God is unchangingand unchangeable. He is also all-wise. So He cannot “change His mind” in the sense of realizing a mistake, backtracking, and trying a new tack.

How then do we explain verses that seem to say that God does change His mind? Verses such as Genesis 6:6, “The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain.” Also, Exodus 32:14 proclaims, “Then the LORD relented and did not bring on His people the disaster He had threatened.” These verses speak of the Lord “repenting” or “relenting” of something and seem to contradict the doctrine of God’s immutability.

Another passage that is often used to show that God changes His mind is the story of Jonah. Through His prophet, God had told Nineveh He would destroy the city in forty days (Jonah 3:4). However, Nineveh repented of their sin (verses 5–9). In response to the Assyrians’ repentance, God relented: “He had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction He had threatened” (verse 10).

There are two important considerations involving the passages that say God changed His mind. First, we can say statements such as “the LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth” (Genesis 6:6) are examples of anthropopathism (or anthropopatheia). Anthropopathism is a figure of speech in which the feelings or thought processes of finite humanity are ascribed to the infinite God. It’s a way to help us understand God’s work from a human perspective. In Genesis 6:6 specifically, we understand God’s sorrow over man’s sin. God obviously did not reverse His decision to create man. The fact that we are alive today is proof that God did not “change His mind” about the creation.

Second, we must make a distinction between conditional declarations of God and unconditionaldeterminations of God. In other words, when God said, “I will destroy Nineveh in forty days,” He was speaking conditionally upon the Assyrians’ response. We know this because the Assyrians repented and God did not, in fact, mete out the judgment. God did not change His mind; rather, His message to Nineveh was a warning meant to provoke repentance, and His warning was successful.

An example of an unconditional declaration of God is the Lord’s promise to David, “Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever” (2 Samuel 7:16). There is no qualification expressed or implied in this declaration. No matter what David did or did not do, the word of the Lord would come to pass.

God tells us of the cautionary nature of some of His declarations and the fact that He will act in accordance with our choices: “If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it. Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions’” (Jeremiah 18:7– 11). Note the conditional word if: “If that nation I warned repents [like Assyria in Jonah 3] . . . then I will relent.” Conversely, God may tell a nation they will be blessed, but “if it does evil in my sight [like Israel in Micah 1] . . . then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do.”

The bottom line is that God is entirely consistent. In His holiness, God was going to judge Nineveh. However, Nineveh repented and changed its ways. As a result, God, in His holiness, had mercy on Nineveh and spared them. This “change of mind” is entirely consistent with His character. His holiness did not waver one iota.

What a runaround to try and explain away the clear reading of the truth of scripture to fit a certain theology.

Every passage that God states he will not repent, those passages are dealing with the long-term plans for the nation of Israel. In that, he will not repent. He has made a covenant with that nation. This is easy to explain in scripture.

God does not use figure of speech. His word is truth.

God does not change. His character always remains the same throughout scripture, but it is evident that God does change in the manner in which he deals with man. Example: Eye for an eye....turn the other cheek. God brought a flood as destruction, then states he's not going to do that again.

God has the authority to limit his knowledge. "Your sins and iniquity I will remember no more." God will not remember us as sinners. We have the righteousness of Christ, his Son. He sees us as he sees his Son.

I mean you are certainly free to believe Jonah knew God was going to repent but God didn’t know.

Bit of a background to Jonah here. Jonah’s homeland was recently and savagely invaded and conquered by the Assyrians ( Nineveh).

Jonah KNEW God would show mercy, and NOT destroy Nineveh upon him delivering God’s message to them. He even says that was the reason he fled on a ship and was ultimately swallowed by a whale.

It’s seems to me to be incredulous to think God didn’t know what Jonah knew, and was shocked and surprised that the Assyrians repented. Frankly. It’s absurd.

Jonah 4:2
New King James Version
2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.


But as I said, you are free to believe whatever you like!

I mean you are certainly free to believe Jonah knew God was going to repent but God didn’t know.

Bit of a background to Jonah here. Jonah’s homeland was recently and savagely invaded and conquered by the Assyrians ( Nineveh).

Jonah KNEW God would show mercy, and NOT destroy Nineveh upon him delivering God’s message to them. He even says that was the reason he fled on a ship and was ultimately swallowed by a whale.

It’s seems to me to be incredulous to think God didn’t know what Jonah knew, and was shocked and surprised that the Assyrians repented. Frankly. It’s absurd.

Jonah 4:2
New King James Version
2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.


But as I said, you are free to believe whatever you like!

Calvinists use Romans 9:17-23 as their proof text that God elects or predestines some for damnation (and others for salvation). We read in verses 17 & 18: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

It is quite probable that Rameses II was the Pharaoh of Egypt when Moses was sent to bring the Israelites out of Egypt. But we need to stick with the Bible narrative regarding this Pharaoh who did not know Joseph, and hated the Israelites.

We need to carefully note the sequence of events in Exodus 5-14 to see that Pharaoh chose his own damnation, even though God gave him many opportunities to repent (as He does to all sinners). What we see is that Pharaoh hardened his heart even before the LORD began to harden his heart. The evidence was (a) the cruelty he showed to the Israelites and (b) his command to destroy all the baby boys of the Hebrews.

The Bible reveals that Pharaoh hardened his heart seven times and the LORD hardened his heart five times. This teaches us that God gives wicked men many opportunities to repent, but eventually He does not allow them to repent because of their own hardness of heart.

1. PHARAOH DEFIES GOD AND HIS HEART IS ALREADY HARD
And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go. (Exod 5:2)

2. THE SERPENT ROD DUPLICATED AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. And He hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 7:12,13)

3. THE PLAGUE OF BLOOD DUPLICATED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 7:22)

4. THE PLAGUE OF FROGS REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 8:15)

5. THE PLAGUE OF LICE COMES AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 8:19)

6. THE PLAGUE OF FLIES REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. (Exod 8:32)

7. THE PLAGUE ON CATTLE AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go. (Exod 9:7)

8. THE PLAGUE OF BOILS AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians. And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. (Exod 9:11,12)

9. THE PLAGUE OF THUNDER & HAIL REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses. (Exod 9:34,35)

10. THE PLAGUE OF LOCUSTS REMOVED AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. (Exod 10:20)

11. THE PLAGUE OF DARKNESS AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. (Exod 10:27)

12. THE DEATH OF THE FIRSTBORN AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand. (Exod 14:8)

This is at best an esoteric debate to try and unravel a paradox that we can’t possibly achieve.

3. From God’s perspective, pharaoh, and every other person He formed, is predestined, because of foreknowledge, for salvation, or destruction.

Hey PennEd,
I haven't talked to you in ages; hope you and your family have been well.

I want to point out a small logical distinctive in one of your points.
I realize you didn't post to be argumentative, and you were actually trying to make peace, and just reconcile these issues in an intelligent way. And I appreciate that.

I'm not a Calvinist, but I consider them my brothers, and I respect their high view of scripture, and their high view of sovereignty.
So although I disagree with them on some things, I've learned a lot from them, and I respect them as my brothers.


So here is the point.

a.) Logically, it cannot be said that foreknowledge actually CAUSES predestination, because foreknowledge has no causal power to actually do anything. It is causally impotent.
Knowledge of an event does not cause an event.
This is an a priori proposition based in definition... there is just no getting around this.

Futhermore, if knowledge of an event cannot cause an event, then it follows the cause must be something else.

b.) This point can be analyzed, and discussed, and proven. It is completely sound, and it cannot logically be otherwise.

c.) If foreknowledge does not CAUSE predestination, because it logically has no power to do so, then the Calvinist may still be able to prove predestination, but he will need to use other arguments.

d.) FINAL THOUGHT:
If we are going to dive into the infinite minutiae of God's thoughts and actions as they transverse time and space, and if we are going to take on the enormous task of separating them into categories, causalities, and contingencies... then we should, at the very least, proceed very, very cautiously.



I will not be returning to this thread to argue predestination, endlessly, while all of the nice people here get more and more worked up.

People can always message me privately, if they want to talk politely about anything substantive.



God Bless You All.
I think it pleases God that we CARE so deeply about his will and his works,
even when we sometimes disagree.


.

Hey PennEd,
I haven't talked to you in ages; hope you and your family have been well.

I want to point out a small logical distinctive in one of your points.
I realize you didn't post to be argumentative, and you were actually trying to make peace, and just reconcile these issues in an intelligent way. And I appreciate that.

I'm not a Calvinist, but I consider them my brothers, and I respect their high view of scripture, and their high view of sovereignty.
So although I disagree with them on some things, I've learned a lot from them, and I respect them as my brothers.


So here is the point.

a.) Logically, it cannot be said that foreknowledge actually CAUSES predestination, because foreknowledge has no causal power to actually do anything. It is causally impotent.
Knowledge of an event does not cause an event.
This is an a priori proposition based in definition... there is just no getting around this.

Futhermore, if knowledge of an event cannot cause an event, then it follows the cause must be something else.

b.) This point can be analyzed, and discussed, and proven. It is completely sound, and it cannot logically be otherwise.

c.) If foreknowledge does not CAUSE predestination, because it logically has no power to do so, then the Calvinist may still be able to prove predestination, but he will need to use other arguments.

d.) FINAL THOUGHT:
If we are going to dive into the infinite minutiae of God's thoughts and actions as they transverse time and space, and if we are going to take on the enormous task of separating them into categories, causalities, and contingencies... then we should, at the very least, proceed very, very cautiously.



I will not be returning to this thread to argue predestination, endlessly, while all of the nice people here get more and more worked up.

People can always message me privately, if they want to talk politely about anything substantive.



God Bless You All.
I think it pleases God that we CARE so deeply about his will and his works,
even when we sometimes disagree.


.