Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
JohnDB

JohnDB

Well-known member
#62
Jan 16, 2021
5,633
2,213
113
#62
Where Calvinists destroy churches they aren't evil. They have been workhorses in spreading the Gospel and doing things to promote the Gospel message.

BUT

With every altar call they are incongruous with the words they speak.

"Choose this day whom you will serve"
"All day long I have held out my hands"
"I played a flute and you didn't dance, I sang a dirge and you didn't cry"

All of these verses speak to us choosing and making a choice....

And where we cry out when lost and looking for God...it still requires Daddy to come find us. But He does!
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#63
Jul 8, 2018
8,350
1,188
113
#63
KelbyofGod said:
@smmartin0507
I guess that I should add that Jesus did lots of works. Peter did lots of works. Paul did lots of works. Others did lots of works. Works are a part of, and are caused by faith. They do not hinder faith. If you have faith you should have works also. The two do not conflict.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Click to expand...

Many of God's adopted children are confused over the scriptures saying that our works bring about a salvation for them. Works are essential for God's children to live an abundant and peaceful life as they sojourn here on earth, but their works in no way contribute to their eternal salvation.

Greek interpretation of Salvation=deliverance, saved=delivered, save=deliver.

If you interpret all of the salvation (deliverance) scriptures to be speaking of eternal deliverance, they will tend to teach that our works will gain us eternal deliverance, and there are too many scriptures that refutes that assumption.

The inspired scriptures were written for instructions to God's adopted children, instructing them as to how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#64
Jul 8, 2018
8,350
1,188
113
#64
JohnDB said:
Where Calvinists destroy churches they aren't evil. They have been workhorses in spreading the Gospel and doing things to promote the Gospel message.

BUT

With every altar call they are incongruous with the words they speak.

"Choose this day whom you will serve"
"All day long I have held out my hands"
"I played a flute and you didn't dance, I sang a dirge and you didn't cry"

All of these verses speak to us choosing and making a choice....

And where we cry out when lost and looking for God...it still requires Daddy to come find us. But He does!
Click to expand...

It is true that God gives mankind the freedom of choosing how he wants to live his life here on earth, but eternal salvation is determined by God's sovereign grace, without mankind's input. They were yet "dead in sins" (unable to believe in the things of the Spirit-1 Cor 2:14) when God quickened them with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Eph 2:1-5).
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#65
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
#65
Nehemiah6 said:
Divine election is not complicated. Children of God are elected and predestinated to be perfected and glorified so that they are "conformed to the image of His Son". So the preaching of the Gospel leads to believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who believe are justified by grace through faith, then sanctified by the working of the Holy Spirit in their lives, and then finally perfected and glorified by Christ Himself. It is all spelled out in Romans 8:29,30.

The five points of TULIP are like dominoes. When you knock down one, they all fall down. Since Christ died for the sins of the whole world as the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world (John 1:29), there goes your limited atonement. And then the whole house of cards collapses.
Click to expand...
IF you could knock one down it would cause a question on the others.

But you never can. Only in your IMAGINATION and WISHFUL twisting of scripture do you ever "knock" one down.

If Christ died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, bar none, then believing is unnecessary. There is no condemnation before God because there is no sin to punish. And that is why Atonement is limited to believers. This is the MOST BASIC biblical logic. Only Believers are not condemned therefore only believers are Atoned for By Christ. => Limited Atonement


This is the difference between sufficient and efficacious, which you are purposely obfuscating. I believe you know better.


Which is better. To say the Lords Death is sufficient for all but not efficacious for all? Or to say the Lords Death is insufficient for all but efficacious for all?

It has to be one or the other because of John 3:18
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#66
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
#66
Nehemiah6 said:
That is completely false. Your remark would actually apply to those who promote Calvinism.
Click to expand...
If you disagree with the basic tenets of Calvinism then you don't understand Scripture or the Gospel.

Calvinism isn't 100% correct. We even see people interpret the basic tenets of Calvinism differently from each other. If you did even a cursory study of the main tenets of Calvinism and compared them to Scripture you would KNOW that it is true.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#67
Jul 8, 2018
8,350
1,188
113
#67
Nehemiah6 said:
Divine election is not complicated. Children of God are elected and predestinated to be perfected and glorified so that they are "conformed to the image of His Son". So the preaching of the Gospel leads to believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who believe are justified by grace through faith, then sanctified by the working of the Holy Spirit in their lives, and then finally perfected and glorified by Christ Himself. It is all spelled out in Romans 8:29,30.

The five points of TULIP are like dominoes. When you knock down one, they all fall down. Since Christ died for the sins of the whole world as the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world (John 1:29), there goes your limited atonement. And then the whole house of cards collapses.
Click to expand...

Those who are interested in gleaning the truth of Jesus doctrine must consider that all scriptures must harmonize with each other before the truth is revealed.

Sometimes Greek interpretation of words are necessary to harmonize the scriptures, such as the word "world".

You might consider if the following "worlds" are the worlds that Christ died for:

John 14:17 - Even the Spirit of truth, whom the "world" cannot (impossible) receive.

John 15:18 - 19, If the World hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own, but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 16:19-20 - Now Jesus knew they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while and ye shall not see me, and again, a little while and ye shall see me? Verily I say unto you. That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice, and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

John 17:9 - I pray for them, I pray not for the world, but for them thou hast given me, for they are thine.

And there are many more scriptures of a world that God does not love.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#68
Jul 8, 2018
8,350
1,188
113
#68
Grandpa said:
If Christ died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, bar none, then believing is unnecessary. There is no condemnation before God because there is no sin to punish. And that is why Atonement is limited to believers. This is the MOST BASIC biblical logic. Only Believers are not condemned therefore only believers are Atoned for By Christ. => Limited Atoneme
Click to expand...

What is your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14 & John 14:17?
 
Snacks

Snacks

Well-known member
#69
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
113
#69
Grandpa said:
IF you could knock one down it would cause a question on the others.

But you never can. Only in your IMAGINATION and WISHFUL twisting of scripture do you ever "knock" one down.

If Christ died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, bar none, then believing is unnecessary. There is no condemnation before God because there is no sin to punish. And that is why Atonement is limited to believers. This is the MOST BASIC biblical logic. Only Believers are not condemned therefore only believers are Atoned for By Christ. => Limited Atonement


This is the difference between sufficient and efficacious, which you are purposely obfuscating. I believe you know better.


Which is better. To say the Lords Death is sufficient for all but not efficacious for all? Or to say the Lords Death is insufficient for all but efficacious for all?

It has to be one or the other because of John 3:18
Click to expand...
I heard the following once and it makes sense according to Scripture. Christ died for the sins of the whole world. However, there is one sin that is unforgivable, blasphemy. So people who don’t believe in Christ are not forgiven of that sin and that is why they are condemned. It actually lines up with John 3:18.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#70
Mar 1, 2022
14,779
5,325
113
62
#70
Snacks said:
I heard the following once and it makes sense according to Scripture. Christ died for the sins of the whole world. However, there is one sin that is unforgivable, blasphemy. So people who don’t believe in Christ are not forgiven of that sin and that is why they are condemned. It actually lines up with John 3:18.
Click to expand...
It would work except the unpardonable sin is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit as the work of Satan.
 
M

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE

Banned
#71
Apr 15, 2022
255
54
28
#71
smmartin0507 said:
The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated
Click to expand...
The doctrine of Calvinism (500 years old) is a false doctrine that borders on heresy. The problem that most people have with Romans is that they see it as if it were written to us. Using out-of-context scriptures can be very deceptive.
 
M

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE

Banned
#72
Apr 15, 2022
255
54
28
#72
CorrectiveLens said:
Don't be swayed by the so-called Christians on this site. Be swayed by the scripture presented and make your own decision.

Rom 9: 11 ( For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth)
This verse shows that God has a purpose in the history of mankind and is aware of past, present, and future. Those elected are not elected because of anything that they do but simply because God has chosen them by calling them.

Rom 9: 14-16 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then, it is NOT of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
God is sovereign, all powerful, all knowing, just, and merciful. All creation is His and He can do whatever He wants with it. When living creatures ( animals, plants, fish, insects, etc.) were first created, they were created as adults with the ability to procreate like kind ( with the same characteristics as the parent). Living beings with a free will can either please God by obedience or displease Him by disobedience. Adam and Eve chose ( with the influence of the serpent) to disobey God and follow their own heart. It seems that since Adam and Eve were the ones that sinned, they only should be punished. Where there is no law there is no transgression. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they developed a conscience and were under the law of Consciencesness. That is why we are all born under the law and why the law is a curse because we are now responsible for all our thoughts and actions. The problem with mankind is puting self above all else. Self is his motivation for every thought and action. When a person recognizes that he is a sinner and is granted repentance by the Father, he turns to the Father for forgiveness who in turn provides the gospel for the forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ through preaching. The person who trusts in Jesus has his sins washed away, but still has a sinful nature because his motivation is still self and the pleasures of the world and the flesh. That is where the Holy Spirit comes into action. The Holy Spirit of the Father and Son dwells in the person and the person becomes a new creature filled with divine love for God and man. With this new motivation of love for every thought and action, we are then obeying the Spirit of the Law and walking in the Spirit. Salvation is not just a mental thing, it is a state of being.

Romans 4: 15 "Because the law worketh wrath; for where no law is, there is no transgression.
What were the consequences of Adam and Eve eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? God had warned them that if they did, they would surely die. This knowledge is our conscience and we are all born with it. This conscience that we are born with lets us know right from wrong and we are all under the law. The tendency of mankind is to put what benefits them first even at the expense of someone else, so we are all sinners ( even before the commandments given to Moses) and we all are condemned to death as soon as we are born. The choices for God are: 1. Let justice prevail and all humans go to hell, or 2. Save all humans, or 3. Save a few.
If God condemned all humans, He would not be merciful. If God saved all humans, there would be lawlessness on earth and in heaven. God's only choice to preserve His justice and His mercy is to save a few. The few are not chosen because of anything they do but because of God's will. God's plan for the chosen is to provide forgiveness of sins through belief in Jesus Christ and sanctification of the heart through His Holy Spirit.

Rom 9: 19-21 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
The answer to the question is: Man was created with a free will and through Adam and Eve's sin, is born with the knowledge of good and evil and are therefore under law. Our actions are motivated by our hearts. It is our heart that is judged not our actions. 1 Cor 13: 1-13 explains that anything done without love in your heart is meaningless. Of course a perfect heart will produce good fruit. It is the Holy Spirit of God that perfects us by filling our hearts with agape love ( the same type of love shared by the Father and Son). When we are motivated by this love, we are obeying the Spirit of the Law and the fruit is: accomplishing the Father's will.

Rom 9: 22-24 What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had before prepared unto glory. Even ( that is ) us , whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.
God puts up with mankind in order to display His justice on the vessels of wrath and His mercy on the vessels of mercy which He predestined.
God is not willing that any of these predestined vessels throughout human history perish so He is longsuffering.


Rom 11: 5-6 Even so, then, at this present time also, there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace;
In every generation God chooses whom to bestow His grace and use for His purpose. We cannot work to achieve this grace because grace is unmerited favor and if by works, then it would be merited. When you are baptized in the name of the Father, you are chosen to receive His grace. The Father chooses, the Son erases, and the Holy Spirit perfects.
Click to expand...
Calvinism is heresy. Limited atonement is heresy, a hateful God that creates to destroy is a dammable heresy.
 
Snacks

Snacks

Well-known member
#73
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
113
#73
Cameron143 said:
It would work except the unpardonable sin is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit as the work of Satan.
Click to expand...
I didn’t see it that way. I thought it meant that when one doesn’t believe in Jesus they are in turn calling God a liar, and that is blasphemous. But I see what you’re saying.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#74
Mar 1, 2022
14,779
5,325
113
62
#74
Snacks said:
I didn’t see it that way. I thought it meant that when one doesn’t believe in Jesus they are in turn calling God a liar, and that is blasphemous. But I see what you’re saying.
Click to expand...
If you read the passage, Jesus is talking with the Pharisees who attribute what He does by the Spirit to Satan. But both are blasphemous.
 
Snacks

Snacks

Well-known member
#75
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
113
#75
Cameron143 said:
If you read the passage, Jesus is talking with the Pharisees who attribute what He does by the Spirit to Satan. But both are blasphemous.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your direction, brother. 🙏
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#76
May 21, 2022
3,907
1,552
113
#76
smmartin0507 said:
Arminians are 100 times worse .

They THROW OUT Predestination and Election. WHY? because they also think it means God predestined men unto damnation. They jump to the very same conclusion. So they not only throw out Calvin they also throw out the bible. And they create a new horror doctrine of their own, the doctrine of Human freewill.

Human Freewill insists that in order to be saved a person must hear the gospel, must believe the gospel and must DECIDE ... CHOOSE. else they are damned.

They therefore consign BILLIONS of human souls to hell because we never reached them with the gospel. That's worse than Calvin.

Come the bible way. BELIEVE God foreknew YOU and predestined you and chose you to be like Jesus and to be His witness in the world.

Leave all else to God's immeasurable mercy and grace.
Click to expand...
Paul made a choice and he even states it in the book of Acts.

TULIP is a false system start to finish, it may seem to bring scripture together but in actuality it is an assault on the character of God.
 
C

CorrectiveLens

Banned
#77
Dec 30, 2020
868
226
43
#77
Grandpa said:
It would contradict scripture if your choice to believe is what CAUSED Salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Click to expand...
Just like repentance, faith is a gift of God and both are a state of being. Salvation is not just believing because even the devil and demons believe that Jesus is the son of God. When a person receives these gifts from the Father, he willingly surrenders his will to the Father and willingly trusts in Jesus and willingly has divine love for God and man. Nothing is forced. Salvation is a state of being and not just a mental thing.
 
M

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE

Banned
#78
Apr 15, 2022
255
54
28
#78
CorrectiveLens said:
Just like repentance, faith is a gift of God and both are a state of being. Salvation is not just believing because even the devil and demons believe that Jesus is the son of God. When a person receives these gifts from the Father, he willingly surrenders his will to the Father and willingly trusts in Jesus and willingly has divine love for God and man. Nothing is forced. Salvation is a state of being and not just a mental thing.
Click to expand...
Well said! 👍
 
M

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE

Banned
#79
Apr 15, 2022
255
54
28
#79
ForestGreenCook said:
It is true that God gives mankind the freedom of choosing how he wants to live his life here on earth, but eternal salvation is determined by God's sovereign grace, without mankind's input. They were yet "dead in sins" (unable to believe in the things of the Spirit-1 Cor 2:14) when God quickened them with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Eph 2:1-5).
Click to expand...
Did I read it right? Eternal salvation IS NOT determined by God's sovereign will. Eternal salvation is determined by whether we CHOOSE to believe in Christ or not. The way is predestined, NOT the individual. God did not make robots out of us. Free will is part of our makeup since we are created in the image of God.
 
C

CorrectiveLens

Banned
#80
Dec 30, 2020
868
226
43
#80
What some posters are forgetting is that the whole world is guilty before God and no one searches for Him. Everyone is born condemned because of their motivation for living is Self. Even though babies are innocent when they are babies, God knows what they will become if and when they grow up. He can't save everyone because then there will be no justice in His kingdom and lawlessness will prevail. He won't condemn everyone because then He would be a merciless God which He is not. His only choice is to save a few which He does. No one is qualified to be saved. God chooses to bestow His grace on whoever He wills. He does this by changing their state of being by first granting the repentance necessary to turn to Him for forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ. Both the repentance and belief in Jesus are gifts from God. He then perfects them by filling them with His Holy Spirit who changes their motivation from self to divine love for God and man. They are then able to obey the Spirit of the Law which to have every thought and action motivated by love for God first and for everyone else as they love themselves (read 1 Cor 13). These are the two commandments given by Christ and on which all the other commandments are based. God does it all and no flesh will boast in Heaven means that no person will be able to say that he got to heaven because of anything they did. Unfortunately, there are people that think that they are going to Heaven because of their choices and merit.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.