Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

Exodus 7:3-5
3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.

5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.


Romans 9:17-18
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


This is ABSOLUTELY straightforward.

Its not what you WISH Scripture said. Its not what most people WISH Scripture said. But it IS what Scripture says.

amen, it is the work of God we believe..

ex 7: 13 And Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.

ex 7: 14 So the Lord said to Moses: “Pharaoh’s heart is hard; he refuses to let the people go

ex 7: 22 Then the magicians of Egypt did so with their [f]enchantments; and Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.

Ex 8: 15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said.

ex 8: 19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the[e] finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had said.

ex 8: 32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

ex 9: 7 Then Pharaoh sent, and indeed, not even one of the livestock of the Israelites was dead. But the heart of Pharaoh became hard, and he did not let the people go.

ex 9: 12 But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

ex 9: 34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants. 35 So the heart of Pharaoh was hard; neither would he let the children of Israel go, as the Lord had spoken by Moses.

ex 10: 20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go.

ex 10: 27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let them go.

out of all of these plagues, only three of them say the lord hardened Pharaohs heart. the rest say pharoah hardened his own heart. or his heart became hard.

Pharaoh did what he wanted to. God did not force him against his will. he strengthened his will. the old addage if you keep believing a lie knowing it is a lie. you will eventually be hardened to the fact that it is a lie, and actually believe it to be true.

as for how one hardens ones heart or God does it. He tells us in Is 6

Is 6:
9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:

‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’

10 “Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”

you do it by exposing to them the truth, the more they see and reject. the duller they become. the more they hear and deny, the harder they become.

he does not overrule a persons will. he strengthens their will..

as for romans 9. He lifted him up in place. because he knew pharaoh would do what pharaoh did. he did not force pharoah against his will to do those things,

he will have mercy on who he has mercy

he shewed mercy to the sinful jews. who so did not believe that they walked the wilderness for 40 years.. thats the context of romans 9

A big Amen to that...
...xox...

Yes but that does not mean that Pharaoh could not be saved. What some people may miss about Romans 9, is that Paul is discussing the purpose, the plan of God in history. Paul is not discussing how any individual may be saved.

What is Paul talking about in Romans 9,10,11?

Why did Israel fail to achieve righteousness?

Context matters in Romans and if you ignore the context you will misunderstand the text.

Romans 9:30-31
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

That is the summary of God's plan, purpose, in using characters to achieve His purpose, for example Jacob. It does not say Jacob is saved, that is not what Paul is discussing in Romans 9.

Any interpretation that is not centered on why Israel failed is an erroneous interpretation.

a yeah pharoah was already slaughtering Gods innocent babies God never made him do those things he just made an example of Egypt in the sight of Israel he hardened his heart not to cause him to do evil but because he already was and had instituted slavery of Gods people and slaughtering of thier new born children

God doesn’t make us do evil but recompense is sure had he not crushed and delivered israel from Egypt the plan couldn’t have unfolded pharoah 100 percent received the due reward for his deeds and this wasn’t because God made him do it

That is not the subject of Paul's narration in Romans 9,10,11.

Romans 11:28-32
In relation to the gospel they (Israel) are enemies on your (Gentiles) account, but in relation to God’s choice they are beloved on account of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.

The original OP concerns Calvinism, freewill, and the letter to the Romans.

Calvinism and freewill are not really what Paul is discussing in the letter to the Romans. Paul spends nine chapters explaining why Israel ultimately failed in their quest.

Romans 9:31
However, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

Romans 10:21
But as for Israel, He says, “I have spread out My hands all day long to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

Romans 11:7
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened.

i never said it was the subject of romans , I was addressing the hardening of pharoahs heart

the subject matter in the Bible is always just what it says it’s never a mystery.

but yeah pharoah isn’t the subject of Roman’s lol I never said any such thing.

[I said God takes sides against the devil. You rejected that by claiming God doesn't take sides. Did you misspeak?]

One last time. God does not take sides. I gave you an example from the book of Joshua (Joshua 5:13-140 which went over your head. I'm not going there anymore.

[I've had my fill of that Dispensationalist BS gambit to attack a person when your ability to logically defend your argument fails. I know you said you were formerly a Dispensationalist but it's idiotic comments like this that make me question how 'former' that status really is. Rise above this nonsense. Don't play stupid games. You are better than this. Don't disappoint my expectations of you.]

I'm not interested in getting your approval, so get off your high horse for once,

[No. There is nothing in the passage that indicates that God's choice was contingent upon any choice of Pharaoh's. God did something to ensure that Pharaoh would act in a desired way. God removed Pharaoh's free will regarding that choice.

And this is addressed in Romans 9.

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" - Rom 9:19 KJV]

In Romans 9:18-19 Paul uses the background of a people who sinned against God grievously since just a few weeks prior, they had heard His voice, they had received the 10 commandments, and they had trembled with fear at the awesome presence of the God who came down to reveal His law to them and make them His covenant people. Yet six weeks later they were erecting a bull-god, reducing the Holy One of Israel to a mere animal after worshipping it and calling it the Lord!

Exodus 32:3–5 (NASB95)
3 Then all the people tore off the gold rings which were in their ears and brought them to Aaron.
4 He took this from their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool and made it into a molten calf; and they said, “This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt.”
5 Now when Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the Lord.”

This is the true context. God had mercy on the ones who remained faithful to Him, but He had no mercy on the vile people who mocked Him. AGAIN, THIS IS THE TRUE CONTEXT.

[Read the surrounding verses for context. Clear as day this is talking about Pharaoh being unable to resist God's will. And God willed Pharaoh not to let Moses and the other Israelites go.]

Read what it says, not what you think it says. Paul's analogy began in Exo. 32.

[Yes, and God knew the exact cause and effect needed to ensure that Pharaoh would perform as God intended. His intention for hardening Pharaoh's heart was to specifically elicit the desired action of not releasing the people. God willed the Pharaoh not to release the people. Pharaoh had no free will to choose otherwise.]

God does not force His will on others. He gave Pharaoh free will to either choose to obey Him or accept the consequences. Your belief in a cruel god is exasperating.

[You come across like you are playing coy with a very simple concept. The KJV of course doesn't have the specific phrase "sinful nature" verbatim. But it is synonymous with what is talked about. And other translations do go so far as to spell it out word for word as "sinful nature" such as NIV in Rom 7:18 (as much as I dislike NIV).]

I dislike the KJV as much as I dislike cults. What the NT speaks is the FLESH, not sinful nature, so regardless of how you try to spin it, "sinful nature" is a man-made invention that attempts to make it impossible to be saved unless God previously elected him for salvation. Isn't that an accurate explanation of your "Reformed" beliefs? Only the elect can hear, the rest are doomed to die in their sins, isn't it? Put your beliefs to the test and read Mark 16:15-16.

[I am carnal" describes the fact that Paul has a carnal fleshly nature that causes him to sin. The carnal mind is against God (cf. Rom 8:7) and therefore is sinful. That which is done without faith is sin]

Paul lived by the spirit, walked with God, and was not aware of any sins he had committed unless, of course, you plan to park your beliefs on the diatribe of Romans 7.

Romans 6:14 (NASB95) "For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace." Could Paul say that while all along he struggled with sin?

[Would you prefer I rephrase my response to say "carnal mind" instead of "sinful nature"? For the purposes of our discussion, they mean the same thing.]

No, they don't. Having a sinful nature means there are zero chances for anyone to bow the knee and confess Jesus as Lord unless God regenerated such a person first. In Christian circles that would be nothing but heresy.

[I think you had mentioned your perspective about this in a different thread a few months back under your other username. I still don't agree with the concept that Paul would be speaking in retrospect rather than in frank honesty about his then current biological impulses."]

You need to read his life through the book of Acts and his epistles and see how blamelessly he walked before the Lord instead of lying about the greatest apostle the world has ever known and using your blasphemous take as an excuse to justify sinful lifestyle.

[I would go so far to say that since the early Church accepted the concept that those in Christ can sin/ trespass (and from there be forgiven our trespasses), it stands that all Christians should accept that concept. I realize there is a divide between Roman Catholicism and Greek Catholicism because one believes in inherent sinful nature comes Adam and the other doesn't. I propose that regardless of origin, that carnal mind still exists for all people but that a silent or still carnal mind cannot sin. It's just that most people don't have a perfectly still carnal mind (and therefore sin takes place).]

God gave us His Holy Spirit so that we could live holy lives pleasing to the Lord. You are insulting the Spirit of grace and the finished work of Christ. No one is sinless, but we can live holy lives not being conscious of sin because if you had the Holy Spirit, you would know how He convicts us even for minor "lies."

Colossians 1:10 (NASB95) "So that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God."

Romans 6:16 (NASB95) "Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?"

Romans 6:22 (NASB95) "But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life."

1 Corinthians 4:4 (NASB95)
4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord."

[Relative to the early Church, what you are proposing in your comment is a heresy. Even Luther accepted the teachings of the early Church.]

I'm not interested in Luther or anyone else for that matter said unless they lived a holy life. Luther was not one of them. I'd rather stick to God's word.

[There are two things that matter in Biblical study: the Bible itself, and early Church doctrine (e.g. the Trinity)]

Obviously, your doctrine of godliness is skewed.

Romans 9:31
However, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.”

Look at it Roman’s as a continuos letter as a whole before you get to nine look what’s being established that relates to what Paul is saying the whole letter echoes many points that lead there regarding the Old Testament law and it’s purpose

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see the connection in this one simple example ? The reason israel couldn’t attain to righteousness is because the law of
Moses is not for that purpose it’s not for making anyone righteous

It is for what it says there

“every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

What I’m saying is Roman’s is a letter a continous message that often repeat points in different words and really many connections and further details are found in almost all Of Paul’s epistles that connect to Roman’s not just 9-11 but every point he makes lie forminstance see there in Roman’s three now consider how this adds to the understanding of Israel’s ot law

So you have this

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

whoch adds to this

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

whoch adds to this

“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭2:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What I’m saying is Roman’s 9-11 isn’t special it’s just reiterating the things Paul teaches in his epistles here’s another example

“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:6, 8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬


See being born ofnisrael flesh doesn’t make anyone israel it’s to receive Jesus spirit that does. not the flesh but the promise not Old Testament israel but new .

It’s not being born of Israel flesh tbat makes anyone anything special it is when they accept Jesus the promised seed of Abraham and get baptized in his name that makes thy. gods elect children

romans 9-11 the same things are found throughout the new testsment

No, that's not what having a sin nature means. People with sin natures (all of us) can choose to believe the gospel.

Do you have scripture for that? And what do you mean by the "diatribe" of Romans 7? You don't think that Paul knew he sinned?

How can we not be conscious of sin when the Holy Spirit convicts us when we do sin?

This was about an angel sent as a messenger rather than a combatant in the battle of Jericho. This has nothing to do with God and does not in any way support any concept that God would not choose sides. This passage does not support your premise. And if you don't understand how, you need to figure this out on your own and come back to me when you have at least a basic understanding of formal logic.

Stop using slimeball tactics and you'll spare yourself the rebuke.

No. Include Rom 9:17 in your reading. This touches on the point about Pharaoh in order to illustrate a larger picture. This has nothing to do with your Exo 32 Bull speculation.

No. God removed Pharaoh's free will in Exodus 10:20 (and other passages). It's fact. It's scripture. You can fight against scriptural all you like in the same way that Dispensationalists always do, but it does not change what scripture states.

And Paul directly addresses this concern in Rom 9:19-21

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" - Rom 9:19-21 KJV

The sentiment is basically "Who are you to question God's designs?" And from the greatness of Pharaoh example, the topic is broadened in Rom 9:21 to talk about the idea that even if someone is from the same stock of clay as someone great and honoured (like Christ) that common origin by itself does not solely dictate whether one becomes a vessel for righteousness, as the potter Himself chooses whether one is made unto honour or dishonour.

Just because God did that to Pharaoh doesn't make God cruel.

Your position in this comment is untenable. If God so chooses something, that's how it is. Exo 10:20 shows very clearly that God can and has forced His will on others. Heck, even humans can force their will on others.

What you said in this comment has no bearing on anything I said. Having a carnal mind does not mean that one is incapable of walking in the path of their spiritual mind. And that was Paul's whole point.

More slimeball tactics from you.

Would you agree that the natural tendency is for humans to sin?

Yes? Exactly. This is what people call sinful nature and what Paul was referencing when he was talking about flesh and carnal mind.

Your comment makes no sense. Do you understand what "convict" means? This also has nothing to do with anything we were talking about.

Not being conscious of sin does not mean that sin doesn't take place.

Are you rejecting the founding Church doctrines? And how would you know whether or not Luther lived a holy life? If by hearsay, your standard of evidence is appalling.

Do you reject the Trinity? You sound like you have problems with both the Bible and early Church doctrine.

I'm getting the impression that you just dislike scripture when it conflicts with your pre-established beliefs.

I hope that you eventually accept God's word for what it actually says and not for what you wish it said.

I'm glad to see that you at least conceded that sinful nature is a thing. It also appears that you have conceded the premise that God can force His will on others.

Your comment shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. You are incorrect on many levels. I think you are probably looking at this as a false dichotomy that one either has a spiritual nature or (XOR) that one has a sinful nature. That perspective is not scripturally supported. There is in fact a duality of natures, not just one or the other. If you sin you have a sinful nature. If you are in Christ you have a Christ-nature. Those natures can coexist in a person like impurities in a metal.

Your simplistic "one or the other" model might be easier for you to mentally juggle, but it is inconsistent with what scripture actually says.

You need to read Romans 9 again without the blinders of what you WISH Romans 9 said. I don't mean that in a bad way. Its something we all need to do.

Romans 9:20-24
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Isn't this ABSOLUTELY clear???

John 1:11-13
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


The same things are being said over and over in different ways in different books of the bible.

I agree that God gave mankind the freedom to make choices as to how he wants to live his life here on earth, but mankind's eternal inheritance is by God's sovereign grace, without the choice of mankind.

I agree.

Those are his elect.

And what point is that?

Psalms 69:28 says it plain enough.

No matter how many times you repeat it, it will never be true.