if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you

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ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,292
6,602
113
#1
Matthew 6:14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

I had a revelation about this verse today. Many years ago my son was in 5th grade and he had a para. The situation at school became untenable and the more I heard about it the more I felt that the para was responsible. He was going to go to a new school in 6th grade and she wanted us to request that she stay with my son. I felt she was not doing a good job and was even clearly responsible for the situation getting more and more miserable for my son. So I made it clear that we would not be requesting her and as a result she really acted with malice to harm our son as much as she could.

Later I learned that the city had changed the rules for paras and if they don't have a degree they will lose their job. The exception is if they are taking care of a kid and the parents request them to continue. She didn't have a degree, so if we did not request her she lost her job. She was making our son's life miserable in hopes that we would feel he wouldn't survive in the new school without a para. She was doing this discreetly through other kids in the class, but I was able to figure out she had to be behind it since I was a teacher and knew that what I was hearing from my son should not take place while she is sitting right there.

Now generally you expect that in order to forgive someone that they must first confess and repent. But are there any sins that you committed that you never got to talk to the person you wronged? I can forgive her and then if the Lord bothers her and she repents to Him He also is clear to forgive her.

OK, but it seems to me that I should have taken a different path, where was my sin, what was it that I did wrong? Then it hit me, I should have pulled my son out of the school long before we even got to the worst of the worst. Instead of going on to a different school if I had simply said I am going to homeschool him then she could not have done anything nor would he have had to go through that torture in 5th grade. I had homeschooled my two oldest kids but since he would be by himself I was reluctant to do it. Ultimately I did homeschool him, pulling him out of the new school after the first two weeks. Suffice it to say the malice she inflicted on him followed him to the new school.

But that is where I went wrong. The Lord was speaking to me to pull my kid out and homeschool him. I didn't want to and so He used this woman to make it so I would.

In other words, when I forgave her then I also was forgiven. I then got the revelation that this was God's move and my sin was not in obeying God's word. Because my son was homeschooled for three years his reading comprehension became very strong. At the time he needed 3 therapists, a para, an occupational therapist, a physical therapist and a speech therapist. When I homeschooled him we were able to spend much more time with his violin lessons and they worked to give him fine motor skills (occupational therapy) and they tuned his ear to perfect pitch (speech therapy). I then asked why he would need a physical therapist and para when he was in high school and they told me because he couldn't walk up stairs without holding the rail and so it was a safety issue. So what we did the summer before he started the 9th grade was to hike up mountains in the Adirondacks. A few months later I had him tested again and he no longer needed to hold onto handrails to go up the stairs and as a result he didn't need a para for HS.

So the revelation I got is that the people who "sin" against us might have been prompted by the Lord because we weren't listening to Him when He spoke. If you forgive them then you can get past that sin to see that the Lord was speaking to you and so you can obey the Lord's speaking and He can forgive you. How does the Lord know that you have forgiven them? Because you see that what they did was under the sovereignty of the Lord and that the real sin was you ignored the Lord's speaking to you.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#2
"God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform."

Isaiah 55:9
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

He knows what He's doing. It's safe to just trust and obey and know He loves us.
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
1,697
590
113
#3
So the revelation I got is that the people who "sin" against us might have been prompted by the Lord because we weren't listening to Him when He spoke.
OH My Land !!!!!------What your saying here is so wrong and is False Doctrine ------God never ---ever prompts anyone to sin against us because we didn't listen to Him --------

We sin because we want to not because we have to -----What your saying here is that God can pull our strings like a puppet and LEAD and TEMPT us to do bad things to to make us listen to Him ------

This person who was causing trouble for your son was doing so because she wanted to ----she had a bad Thoughts and a bad motive for doing what she chose to do herself -----Satan put the thought in her head ---she ACTED on her evil desires and it was satisfying her wicked Sin Nature -----

All God allows Satan to do is put bad thoughts in our Minds and then we choose to act on thoughts --all by ourselves

God gave us free will to choose to act on our thoughts or not to -----He forces no one to act on good or bad thoughts ----He gave us a Mind ---Will and Emotions ---and free will to decide to make our own choices -----

Christians are to cast down bad thoughts ------so we don't act on them ------Your Physical Body is a vehicle which will carry out your good or bad thoughts ----

So here is what happens when we are prompted by God to do a Good thing or Best thing for us and we do not listen ----We all by our selves reap what we sow -----bad thoughts put into action reaps bad results ----Good thoughts put into action reaps good results ----

So in your situation here with this person ------ if the Holy Spirit Prompted you to take the son out of that school and you didn't Listen ---then that is on you ---you will reap the bad consequence of your Free Choice -----cause you didn't listen to the prompt -----that is all on you ------you cause your own fate here ---then when you took your son to home school ----things got better ---so you finally listened to the prompt and it worked out ------you finally listened because you were fed up with the way things were with your son ----you made a good decision and reaped the good results

God did not make the person sin against you so you would Listen -----Please do not spread this False Doctrine ----this is very dangerous Doctrine your spouting out here -----and it goes against Scripture ----

I urge you and encourage you to read the God's Word and know how God works ------He is a Holy God and could never Tempt anyone to commit Sin so someone would listen to Him ----



 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#4
ZNP said:
So the revelation I got is that the people who "sin" against us might have been prompted by the Lord because we weren't listening to Him when He spoke.
OH My Land !!!!!------What your saying here is so wrong and is False Doctrine ------God never ---ever prompts anyone to sin against us because we didn't listen to Him --------
Perhaps he meant that God uses evil men as tools of chastisement. I am thinking of when God hardened Pharoah's heart against Israel.
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
1,697
590
113
#5
Perhaps he meant that God uses evil men as tools of chastisement. I am thinking of when God hardened Pharoah's heart against Israel.
I think one needs to understand what that really means ----Does God Really Harden Hearts Himself ????
I don't think so -----We have a Fallen Nature at birth which is the cause of our hardened hearts -----God didn't cause our Hardened hearts ----we inherited our hardened hearts from the fall in the garden ----


Here is the thing with Pharaoh's heart------it was hardened and away from God at this birth ------as is all our hearts ----when we are born -----Pharaoh was born a sinner with a stony stubborn heart against God -----

God could have changed Pharaoh's heart to accept what Moses wanted which was to free the Israelites ---but God just allowed Pharaoh's heart to remain hardened as it already was --

So God didn't Harden Pharaoh's heart at that time or any time the fall of mankind hardened Pharaoh's heart ----it was always hardened and away from God ---

God can change a hardened heart to a tender responsive heart ------

Ezekiel 36:26 New Living Translation

And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart.

From Google
Can God change hardened heart?

God actually gives us a softened heart when we turn to him in search of healing from our hardened heart. Having a softened heart is like having a whole new heart that is more refreshed, more willing to love God and others, and more open to trusting Him.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,292
6,602
113
#6
OH My Land !!!!!------What your saying here is so wrong and is False Doctrine ------God never ---ever prompts anyone to sin against us because we didn't listen to Him --------

We sin because we want to not because we have to -----What your saying here is that God can pull our strings like a puppet and LEAD and TEMPT us to do bad things to to make us listen to Him ------

This person who was causing trouble for your son was doing so because she wanted to ----she had a bad Thoughts and a bad motive for doing what she chose to do herself -----Satan put the thought in her head ---she ACTED on her evil desires and it was satisfying her wicked Sin Nature -----

All God allows Satan to do is put bad thoughts in our Minds and then we choose to act on thoughts --all by ourselves

God gave us free will to choose to act on our thoughts or not to -----He forces no one to act on good or bad thoughts ----He gave us a Mind ---Will and Emotions ---and free will to decide to make our own choices -----

Christians are to cast down bad thoughts ------so we don't act on them ------Your Physical Body is a vehicle which will carry out your good or bad thoughts ----

So here is what happens when we are prompted by God to do a Good thing or Best thing for us and we do not listen ----We all by our selves reap what we sow -----bad thoughts put into action reaps bad results ----Good thoughts put into action reaps good results ----

So in your situation here with this person ------ if the Holy Spirit Prompted you to take the son out of that school and you didn't Listen ---then that is on you ---you will reap the bad consequence of your Free Choice -----cause you didn't listen to the prompt -----that is all on you ------you cause your own fate here ---then when you took your son to home school ----things got better ---so you finally listened to the prompt and it worked out ------you finally listened because you were fed up with the way things were with your son ----you made a good decision and reaped the good results

God did not make the person sin against you so you would Listen -----Please do not spread this False Doctrine ----this is very dangerous Doctrine your spouting out here -----and it goes against Scripture ----

I urge you and encourage you to read the God's Word and know how God works ------He is a Holy God and could never Tempt anyone to commit Sin so someone would listen to Him ----



Not what I said.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,292
6,602
113
#7
ZNP said:
So the revelation I got is that the people who "sin" against us might have been prompted by the Lord because we weren't listening to Him when He spoke.


Perhaps he meant that God uses evil men as tools of chastisement. I am thinking of when God hardened Pharoah's heart against Israel.
What I meant is that if God is speaking to you, then you need to obey. He can politely say "I want you to homeschool" your son. You can ignore that because of all kinds of reasons, you can harden your heart, but he also can use people and circumstances until you do listen and you do obey.

Nothing new there.

However, the Bible says if you forgive those who sin against you then God your father will also forgive you your sins. What if you hadn't sinned? It is clear from the Bible that is not a possibility. Not only so but one story the Lord shared makes it clear that your sin is very similar to the sin that the person did to you. God forgives you the equivalent of ten million days wages while you forgive another person the equivalent of 100 days wages.

But here is the thing, you sinned first. Before you can even forgive someone else that sin is hanging over your head and the Lord wants you to repent and be forgiven of it. When you forgive the other person then God will forgive you. OK, but forgiveness requires that you confess and repent, and confessing requires that you see your sin. How do I see my sin? When I forgive the other person I see that all things are under the Lord's sovereignty. That sin against me would not have been allowed had not God allowed it. Think of the story of Job. God allowed Satan to harm Job because He had a revelation for Job.

What did God tell Job? Do you have an arm like God, do you have a voice like God? Man is made in the likeness and image of God, so we should have an arm like God and a voice like God. You ignored that until it really mattered.

Let's go back to my son who I homeschooled. He was seeing a Physical therapist, a speech therapist and an occupational therapist and had a para. I had him learn the violin and that gave him the fine motor skills they teach in occupational therapy. Playing the violin also taught him perfect pitch which eliminated the need for the speech therapist. Continued...
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,292
6,602
113
#8
However, they would not let him in the high school without a para because he couldn't walk up the stairs without holding the railing. So I took him mountain climbing in the Adirondacks. It was very difficult. The first mountain we went up took us 13 hours while others were taking 6 hours. Everyone passed us going up and then coming back down. We almost didn't make it down because it got so dark we could barely see. Another mountain had ice with melting water and slush on top over the entire trail. It was incredibly slippery and my son couldn't go 200 yards. Instead of quitting I tied my belt to my pants so that he could hold onto the belt and we went up the entire mountain like that. It was very tough. But, he no longer needed a para.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,884
5,630
113
#9
Matthew 6:14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

I had a revelation about this verse today. Many years ago my son was in 5th grade and he had a para. The situation at school became untenable and the more I heard about it the more I felt that the para was responsible. He was going to go to a new school in 6th grade and she wanted us to request that she stay with my son. I felt she was not doing a good job and was even clearly responsible for the situation getting more and more miserable for my son. So I made it clear that we would not be requesting her and as a result she really acted with malice to harm our son as much as she could.

Later I learned that the city had changed the rules for paras and if they don't have a degree they will lose their job. The exception is if they are taking care of a kid and the parents request them to continue. She didn't have a degree, so if we did not request her she lost her job. She was making our son's life miserable in hopes that we would feel he wouldn't survive in the new school without a para. She was doing this discreetly through other kids in the class, but I was able to figure out she had to be behind it since I was a teacher and knew that what I was hearing from my son should not take place while she is sitting right there.

Now generally you expect that in order to forgive someone that they must first confess and repent. But are there any sins that you committed that you never got to talk to the person you wronged? I can forgive her and then if the Lord bothers her and she repents to Him He also is clear to forgive her.

OK, but it seems to me that I should have taken a different path, where was my sin, what was it that I did wrong? Then it hit me, I should have pulled my son out of the school long before we even got to the worst of the worst. Instead of going on to a different school if I had simply said I am going to homeschool him then she could not have done anything nor would he have had to go through that torture in 5th grade. I had homeschooled my two oldest kids but since he would be by himself I was reluctant to do it. Ultimately I did homeschool him, pulling him out of the new school after the first two weeks. Suffice it to say the malice she inflicted on him followed him to the new school.

But that is where I went wrong. The Lord was speaking to me to pull my kid out and homeschool him. I didn't want to and so He used this woman to make it so I would.

In other words, when I forgave her then I also was forgiven. I then got the revelation that this was God's move and my sin was not in obeying God's word. Because my son was homeschooled for three years his reading comprehension became very strong. At the time he needed 3 therapists, a para, an occupational therapist, a physical therapist and a speech therapist. When I homeschooled him we were able to spend much more time with his violin lessons and they worked to give him fine motor skills (occupational therapy) and they tuned his ear to perfect pitch (speech therapy). I then asked why he would need a physical therapist and para when he was in high school and they told me because he couldn't walk up stairs without holding the rail and so it was a safety issue. So what we did the summer before he started the 9th grade was to hike up mountains in the Adirondacks. A few months later I had him tested again and he no longer needed to hold onto handrails to go up the stairs and as a result he didn't need a para for HS.

So the revelation I got is that the people who "sin" against us might have been prompted by the Lord because we weren't listening to Him when He spoke. If you forgive them then you can get past that sin to see that the Lord was speaking to you and so you can obey the Lord's speaking and He can forgive you. How does the Lord know that you have forgiven them? Because you see that what they did was under the sovereignty of the Lord and that the real sin was you ignored the Lord's speaking to you.
that was a nice read , thanks for sharing that , God bless and keep you
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
1,697
590
113
#10
ZPN ----I apologize If I took what you said wrongly ----as you say------ you didn't say that --But this is your quote from Above which says exactly that ----and I am sorry but that is just a false statement and needed to be clarified -----we are to divide Rightly the Word of God -------

So the revelation I got is that the people who "sin" against us might have been prompted by the Lord because we weren't listening to Him when He spoke
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
42,543
17,018
113
69
Tennessee
#12
"God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform."

Isaiah 55:9
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

He knows what He's doing. It's safe to just trust and obey and know He loves us.
He performs wonders in our lives without us even realizing it.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,749
1,573
113
#13
@ZNP
Wonderful story. If I may, I have a similar experience.

I began my professional career as an Early Childhood Consultant. I worked my way up the ranks and became the CEO of the agency. As an aside, the behavioral health field is full of practitioners with wretched lives; from psychiatrists to support staff, often at large State gatherings it was difficult to discern the workers from the patients (actually no patients attended, but many of the people needed help).

In spite of my reservations about the field in general, I determined to be a leader unto the Lord and to not be concerned with the state of the field. As the CEO, the Lord gave me a set number of souls to influence (25) so I set out to establish the agency as a place of peace and good order. And I did. We were very much like a family. As I cared for those under my rule they, likewise, cared for the people they helped. We touched thousands of lives.

Then the leadership at the funding level changed. The man who loved people and saw the agency as a ministry was replaced by a callus woman who was only interested in numbers. Her mandates changed our whole business model and introduced competition among the front line staff.

Then, the state of Ohio gave all the public funding to private insurance companies to manage. These were companies skilled at not paying their dues; companies ran by actuarials and mathematics.

The verse "There arose a pharaoh in Egypt who did not know Joseph" was given to me. I was miserable. What I labored to build was crumbling, not by my own hand but by the external powers of government. I grumbled a lot to the Lord and to my wife.

Long story short: after putting into order the last of my responsibilities (training the Clinical Director and Finance Director on my day-to-day functions, finishing our grueling accreditation process) I resigned. I resigned without another job lined up. I did it in faith. 10 days before my last day at the office I was offered another job, the current one I am in. I love it here. I rarely feel like I am working.

To your point, ZNP, if it hadn't been for the person at the funding level being callus and money driven I would probably still be at my old job and not nearly as fulfilled as I am today. The Lord wanted me out of the behavioral health field and He sent despicable people to chase me out. Of that I am certain.

Peace,
Aaron56
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,096
3,683
113
#15
Matthew 6:14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
Jewish passage concerning the kingdom of heaven, the earthly, Messianic kingdom. For the body of Christ, our forgiveness is based upon the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Should we forgive others? Yes, but our forgiveness is not based upon forgiving others.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,292
6,602
113
#16
Jewish passage concerning the kingdom of heaven, the earthly, Messianic kingdom. For the body of Christ, our forgiveness is based upon the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Should we forgive others? Yes, but our forgiveness is not based upon forgiving others.
Matthew 18:
The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”


22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [e]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you [f]all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [g]his trespasses.”
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
1,697
590
113
#17
Exodus 10:27
“But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.”

I say
Understanding what is being put forth here is vital to understanding it -----

All your doing is quoting a piece of Scripture and saying God hardened Pharaoh's heart without Spiritual understanding of what the Scripture is really saying -----


Commentary on this piece of scripture below ----which I agree with ---and from Got Questions ---which I agree with ---which says -Pharaoh chose to keep His own heart hardened to God's plea -----

if you don't agree with that --then that is your choice ---but------why would God Choose to harden a Heart that was already hardened and away from God -doing evil works ------and -----God already knew that Pharaoh would not consent to freeing His Chosen Nation when Moses went to him -because He knew His Heart would stay hardened ---

We can't blame God for our hardened hearts ------we keep our own hearts hardened against God -----that is our free choice ---and Pharaoh made that his choice


Adam Clarke


Exodus 10:27
The Lord hardened Pharaoh' s heart -

He had yet another miracle to work for the complete conviction of the Egyptians and triumph of his people; and till that was wrought he permitted the natural obstinacy of Pharaoh' s haughty heart to have its full sway, after each resistance of the gracious influence which was intended to soften and bring him to repentance.


This is from Got Questions ----on this --which says Pharaoh hardened His own heart a couple of times ---read the scripture noted here -----

Second, on least a couple occasions, Pharaoh hardened his own heart against letting the Israelites go: “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:15). “But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:32).

Pharaoh and Egypt had brought these judgments on themselves with 400 years of slavery and mass murder. Since the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and Pharaoh and Egypt had horribly sinned against God, it would have been just if God had completely annihilated Egypt.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#18
All your doing is quoting a piece of Scripture and saying God hardened Pharaoh's heart without Spiritual understanding of what the Scripture is really saying -----
Is this what they call "Gaslighting"? :unsure:
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,292
6,602
113
#19
Is this what they call "Gaslighting"? :unsure:
I think we can learn some principles from Exodus and Pharaoh and Job.

What really confused me is why do the Satanists and FreeMasons tell us ahead of time what they are going to do? The answer is that there is nothing hidden that will not be made known. It is the "rule" of this competition between Jesus and Satan for the souls of man.

So, Satan is following the rules, even with Job he followed the rules.

One rule is "as you have done it will be done unto you". So then, if something is done unto you that is not right could it be that you did something to others that was not right?

Suppose you feel your boss is not treating you right, they don't respect you as they should. Could it be that you did not treat your boss (Jesus) right and did not respect Him as you should. Perhaps He told you to do something and you came up with all kinds of reasons why that would be a bad idea. Why are you treating Him disrespectfully? So don't be surprised if "as you have done it will be done unto you".
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
1,697
590
113
#20
Is this what they call "Gaslighting"?

LOL ------
1670437593638.jpeg

You might think so ---I call it quoting a piece of scripture with no Spiritual Understanding of the Truth of what it is saying

I think your using Gaslighting as a big

-----that is my view-----