Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

He will bring us down to Earth with Him at His Second Coming and we will reign with Him on Earth during the 1000 years.

When He comes down to rule and reign on Earth for 1000 years, He will bring us down with Him.
After the 1000 years, the unjust shall be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement (which will take place in Heaven.)
The redeemed shall spend eternity on a New Earth with a New Jerusalem.

Great question! (One which I've addressed in past threads, btw.)

Glad you ask!

[I tried to make this as brief as possible!! LOL]
V.39's "that all THAT" / "raise IT" is speaking of "THINGS"--for example, "I will GIVE HIM the THRONE of his father David" [earthly-located "throne" related to KINGDOM / RULE / REIGN / THRONE / KING-type stuffs... which will be raised up "IN THE LAST DAY" (we think of earthly-located MK-age, at least)]

V.40's "that EVERY ONE" / "raise HIM up" refers to PEOPLE;


Verse 40 is not merely a repetition of the exact matter v.39 addresses

(somewhat related, in a sense, yes, but not IDENTICAL matters, see.)
Ditto that latter one I just put in the section above.

Consider how John 6:44 ^ says, "except the Father which hath sent me draw him" and compare that with what Jesus said in John 12:32, "“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” ... and ponder whether you detect any "timing" differences between these two.

This passage is speaking specifically of "the last day" of the 7-day "Jewish feast of Tabernacles" (aka feast of Booths) per verse 2; corresponding with the following passages: Lev23:34,34-36; Deut16:13,16; Zech14:16; Ex23:16-17; Num29:12-34,[35-38 some include, though I believe is separate, regarding "the eighth day"]; and Neh8:14-18,18;

Now whether or not this has some prophetic connection to eschatology [-timing-wise] is a matter for another discussion (I won't take up space to cover that here in this thread )

He that "rejecteth" Jesus and "receiveth not" Jesus' words, will indeed be judged by "the word that I have spoken," in that, they will NOT be permitted to experience the MK age, but will instead continue (during that time-frame) to be restricted to "hell"--where the unsaved go upon "death" (i.e. NOT be "resurrected" to ENJOY the MK age, as ALL "saints / believers" WILL BE PRESENT to enjoy)

ALL OT saints and Trib saints who will have DIED in the Trib yrs will indeed be "resurrected" IN THE LAST DAY" (that is, FOR the MK age / THAT "DAY" [a long spans of time--not merely "a singular 24-hr day"--they'll be resurrected "IN" the last day]);
However, Paul was given the task of disclosing "A MYSTERY" (to / for / about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"), which was NOT something that had been previously disclosed (i.e. something ALL OT saints already WELL-KNEW, Dan12:13 / Job19:25-27 / jn11:24, etc);

Recall, 1Cor2 tells us that there were SOME THINGS that were necessarily kept HIDDEN/UNDISCLOSED prior to the time of Jesus' death on the Cross (see 1Cor2:8[7])... and kept hidden / undisclosed for an important reason!






Hopefully this helps you see my perspective a little more clearly. I tried my best to make it brief!!

EDIT to INSERT (something I'd wanted to add):

I've seen verses split out like that, probably on this forum

Pretribbers will take verses about the second coming and say these verses are for the rapture, and these are for the second coming.... but there is absolutely no reason to think they do not refer to the sam eevent.

The rapture happens at the coming of Christ. That's in I Thessalonians 4. The lawless one is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming. That's in II Thessalonians 2.

If you want to argue that there are two parousia events, the burden of proof is on you. Just pointing to the Bible saying, "It's in there" isn't evidence. That might for a Ragu commercial, but not for Biblical interpretation.

There is nothing anti-post trib in that verse. What we do see in the Bible is the New Jerusalem descending after 1000 years. If you are convinced that that doesn't satisfy what Jesus said and that we must go to heaven, there is still no evidence for Jesus coming back before the tribulation in the Bible.

Are you obtuse or wilfully ignorant.

You pretend like the Bible teaches pre-trib. That passage says nothing about Jesus coming back before the tribulation. When I say show me scripture that teaches that the rapture occurs before the tribulation, I mean show scripture that actually teaches that the rapture occurs before the tribulation, not some verse reference that does NOT teach that accompanied by a childish insult.

In fact, in Matthew 24 Jesus told His own disciples about the coming of the Son of man and gathering the elect AFTER the tribulation. Many pretribbers use verses from Matthew 24 that are clearly set after the tribulation as part of their pre-trib teachings, including the 'days of Noah verse'... which is about the coming of the Son of man AFTER the tribulation. Another example is the verse about being prepared as for a thief--- if he knew what hour the thief would come. And another is 'one shall be taken and another left.' This is talking about the coming of the Son of man, which, we see, several verses before, comes AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

Are you so convinced that the Bible teaches pretrib that you think you do not actually have to study or quote any verses to see if the idea is true or argue for it?

Ad hominem attacks do not prove your position.

Show one example.

This verse does not mention the tribulation. it does not say the rapture happens before the tribulation. Jesus does not say in this verse that He returns twice. It does not say that the church goes to heaven for seven years. This is not a pretrib rapture verse. It doesn't say anything about the timing of the rapture.

Do you have any scripture to share that actually addresses the issue of the timing of the rapture that sets it before the tribulation, rather than at the actual coming of the Lord mentioned in other scriptures?

This does not say that the church is raptured before the tribulation. Keep on reading and you see that right after this is the Rider on a white horse passage, which folks like you and me take to be a passage about the Second Coming. Why would verse about 'the marriage as of the Lamb is come' be followed immediately by a Second Coming passage and a passage on the first resurrection if the church had already been in heaven for seven years? This is announced right before the resurrection of the dead. The placement of this verse is good evidence AGAINST pretrib, and not before it.

I really don't get how you can be pretrib if this is what you are quoting. You have no evidence for it at all from the scriptures you refer to.

Paul teaches that the church goes up at the coming of the Lord, and that the church returns with Christ at the coming of the Lord. The time it happens is at the coming of the Lord, not seven years before. The Bible already answers this question. The book of Revelation does not say that the church is not anywhere on earth during the tribulation. It uses 'church' exclusively to refer to local assemblies. Never does the book of Revelation use 'church' to refer to believers scattered all over the earth for that. It uses 'saints' for that. Never does the book say that the saints do not assemble as congregations/assemblies/churches.

But II Thessalonians 1 lets us know that the church (of the Thessalonians in this case) will receive rest from tribulation when Jesus returns. When he comes to execute judgment on them that believe not he also comes to be glorified in His saints. How is the wording of that chapter consistent with pretrib.

The rapture happens right after the resurrection. The 'first resurrection' is in Revelation 20. The rapture happens at the coming of the Lord according to I Thessalonians 4. The lawless one is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming according to II Thessalonians 2. The beast is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 20, mentioned right before the first resurrection in that passage. There is no evidence in the New Testament that 'the coming of the Lord' refers to separate events.

How about we just get our beliefs from what the Bible teaches instead of bringing in this extrabiblical pretrib theory?

Pre-tribber here (me!)

I'm continually pointing out that "the marriage FEAST / SUPPER" is located ON THE EARTH, AFTER His "RETURN" to the earth in Rev 19... and IS "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age" (and pertains to the "guestS [PLURAL]" and the "10 [or 5] VirginS [PLURAL]" and "the FRIEND of the Bridegroom," etc-none of whom He is "MARRYING"!!).


It is distinct from "the MARRIAGE" itself, which pertains solely to "the Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" (presently "betrothed" 2Cor11:2), and which will have already taken place by the time of His "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19 (Lk12:36 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN "the meal [G347; see also Matt8:11 and parallel]"... ; The text in Rev19 states, "the marriage CAME" and "the bride / wife PREPARED";

...as for "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (pertaining to the PLURAL folks, i.e. "guestS" having been "INVITED"), the text in Rev19 only states, "BLESSED are those HAVING BEEN INVITED [perfect participle] TO the wedding FEAST / SUPPER"<--the "INVITING" part has been completed by this point, but the "FEAST / SUPPER" is next on the agenda of the sequence-of-events, and we see those in the various gospels accounts regarding "the MEAL [G347]" / "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" and the passages depicting their ENTRANCE into the kingdom AGE time-period (without ever having lifted off the earth, and in fact, following His "RETURN" to the earth... the "BLESSED" aren't going anywhere, but are STAYING PUT, FOR the earthly MK age / the wedding FEAST/SUPPER--commencing upon His "RETURN" THERE / TO THE EARTH)




So, no, it's not the general viewpoint of "pre-trib" to say "the wedding feast / supper" takes place IN HEAVEN prior to His return to the earth / Second Coming to the earth... though I do admit many pre-tribbers do understand it that way (incorrectly so )

Let me ask you point blank, since your post seems to beat around the bush, in a rather lengthy manner again. Do you think there are two parousia of Christ events mentioned in II Thessalonians.

Are you using a Greek translation of Zechariah?


What does this have to do with what we are talking about. Jesus came and went when He was on the earth. But after the ascension, the two men told the disciples that He would return in like manner as He went up. We are waiting for the return of Christ.

The Bible doesn't teach that He comes back over again. We are waiting for Jesus' coming. Without any evidence that passages on the return of Christ refer to multiple events, it makes sense that they refer to the same event.

Pre-tribbers need to show some actual scripture that teaches that the verses about Jesus coming' in Paul's epistles refer to multiple events.

There is also the problem that Jesus told His disciples about watching for the coming of the Son of man, which is set __after__ the tribulation.

I've addressed your very question in past posts and in past threads numerous times, which have seemed to go over your head / whiz past you (even in posts where you've said "it can't mean that coz then it would be saying "the rapture can't happen until the rapture happens first..." Which is NOT what it would say, nor is it what we are pointing out in that sentence! This particular point of misunderstanding-of-what-we're-pointing-out is on your part, not ours--Nowhere have we stated, nor even HINTED, that that word would be in that verse/sentence TWICE! but this continues to be what is suggested that we are pointing out about it--and now you have been adding some foreign idea that I've suggested His "COMING" lasts for 7 years...which I've not suggested anywhere);



SOOOO, I figured I would take another approach, by means of the question I posed in my Post #282 [<--for all the readers to see]



If you'd like to address that, I'm willing to start from there (step by step). If not, that's totally fine too (but don't say I've never addressed your question... I have, numerous times and in numerous ways, as best I know how. Post #282 is my latest attempt. Take it or leave it, it matters not to me... you are the one asking us to address your question, and THAT POST is my latest "starter" ON THAT SUBJECT)

Well, that answer is found in the very post of mine you just quoted, where I had written:

(also found at that LINK I provided there ^ )

[time for a new pair of glasses, perhaps?? lol]

Just before Jesus ascended (2nd one) in Acts 1, the disciples asked Him a specific question regarding "will you AT THIS TIME restore again the _____" what? Fill in the blank.

--Jesus response to them had to do with its TIMING (which was the question they were ASKING Him--regarding its "TIMING" which they didn't know; not regarding its NATURE, which they correctly knew--They correctly knew WHAT the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [as we call it] IS, as it was what was promised to them... And Jesus had already spoken to them about it when He spoke of "the age [singular] to come" in Mt12, just b/f His Mt13 talk about "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" when the "angels" will "REAP");

--In Luke 12:36, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (THEN "the meal [G347]"), this means that the wedding has already taken place by this point in the chronology... and He is not "MARRYING" the "blessed [i.e. saved]" persons IN THIS TEXT (which context is parallel to Matt24:42-51, by the way). Nor are the "blessed" being TAKEN anywhere (i.e. IN THE AIR, for example). This corresponds with the ones who are "LEFT" at that time (which are the righteous / blessed / saved persons; whereas the ones "TAKEN" are "taken away in judgment" at this time-slot). This context speaks to His "RETURN" to the earth ("our Rapture," by contrast, is located elsewhere)

Your posts can be lengthy and winding, and then only imply the conclusion, if one can guess at what you are thinking.

I'll ask you. Can you answer me directly. Do you believe that Jesus returns twice, that there are two parousia of Christ mentioned in Paul's epistles?

Do you think there are two parousia of the Lord, or do you think the parousia lasts for seven years?

What other alternative is there?

In I Thessalonians 4, the rapture happens at the coming of the Lord.
In I Thessalonians 4, the lawless one is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming.

Is the coming/parousia of the Lord two events or not? Do you think it is one long event.

As I recall, if I asked stuff in the past, you would post a post with long sentences, with capitals, bolded fonts, brackets, and parenthesis implying that the day of the Lord could last a long time. But what about the parousia? Do you think there is more than one parousia of the Lord or do you think 'parousia' can be stretched for multiple years. Or do you think the rapture and destruction of the lawless one happen at the same time, or or less? Is there another alternative?

If this is about what the two men said about how Jesus was returning, why would you think they were answering the disciples question? The Lord had already answered them.

I've repeatedly answered that question and in simple words:

There is only ONE "RETURN".

That is His "RETURN" TO THE EARTH (Rev19).

I've supplied passages:

--Lk12:36 and context, plus its parallel (Matt24:42-51), "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"

--Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"

... these folks are STILL ON THE EARTH when He "RETURNS" there (to the earth, where they are located).

At two differing LOCATIONS, yes.

His "presence / parousia" IN THE AIR is NOT His "presence / parousia" MANIFESTED at His "RETURN" TO THE EARTH

(many things spelled out in the text / texts INTERVENE between these two distinct instances).





We are exhorted to "distinguish the things which differ" and are also told to be "correctly apportioning the word of truth"... It is not a desirable thing to simply throw everything into one big mish-mash-of-MUSH, and expect there to be no "issues" (such as seeming "contradictions" and so forth, which are the natural result, if one pays close enough attention--many people do not).

Wait a minute... (no offense)... I thought it is supposed to be the "righteous / saved " who will be raised up "AT [/IN] THE LAST DAY"... but here you are saying it is the LOST / UNsaved who will be.

Can you explain your reasoning here?

Or did you just mean a general phrase of your own, by the words "at the last day" and not the BIBLICAL phrase used in scripture itself? Is that it? Just wondering...

No. I'm not saying that.

I already stated that what the "two men" were referring to is about His "RETURN TO THE EARTH" (it will be "in the same manner AS YE HAVE SEEN Him traveling into Heaven" that He will RETURN to the EARTH--They were not speaking in any way about the time of "the meeting OF THE LORD IN THE AIR").


It just so happens that the thing they asked Jesus about (re: "restore" and its TIMING) will also be LOCATED ON THE EARTH. The Subject He had also covered with them for the preceding "40 days" (or thereabouts)

Again, ALL "Son of man cometh / coming / shall come / coming of / etc" speaks to His Second Coming to the earth -designation, to judge and to reign (be pondering what Revelation says LEADS UP TO that point, and what OT passages CORRESPOND to some of those passages);

--consider: the ones Jesus is speaking to here are the ones specifically here in this text:
3And of Him sitting upon the Mount of Olives, opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked Him in private, [1/3 of the 12] 4“Tell us when these things will be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be accomplished?”

5And Jesus began to say to them, “Take heed, lest [...]" (parallel Matt24 text);


--consider: the "ye / you" of the Olivet Discourse is a consistent and "proleptic 'you'" (meaning, basically, all those in the future OF THE SAME CATEGORY--Which "category" is those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom WAS PROMISED--and related to their Q of Jesus in Acts 1:6 regarding its TIMING, which TIMING-issue they didn't grasp; Again, let the readers compare Matt24:29-31 with the Isa27:9,12-13 passage it corresponds to... to see "WHO" and "TO WHERE" and "IN WHAT MANNER" they are gathered);


--consider: "the abomination [singular] of desolation [singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet" refers to the reference to it in Dan12:11 (which chpt starts out by identifying as its subject "thy [Daniel's] people" and the reference to "a nation [singular]" speaking of Israel in particular v.1... the WISE of whom [per vv.3,10] "WILL UNDERSTAND" [and they, the WISE of them, also are said to "turn many to righteousness"]--at the time-frame being referenced--yet future to us)




Well, I better stop there... as I'm likely wasting my breath, so to speak, as this post won't be READ for its lengthiness... *sigh*...

You are never ever "wasting your breath" posting here on CC bro.....

The righteous are raised at the rapture ... that is what the rapture is, the resurrection of the just.

The last day is at the end of the 1, 000 years ... everybody who ever lived will be raised for judgement, excepting of course the righteous who are already raised.