Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

[Evmur]

He will bring us down to Earth with Him at His Second Coming and we will reign with Him on Earth during the 1000 years.


When He comes down to rule and reign on Earth for 1000 years, He will bring us down with Him.
After the 1000 years, the unjust shall be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement (which will take place in Heaven.)
The redeemed shall spend eternity on a New Earth with a New Jerusalem.

I know you think you have it pat dear bro.

Saying He will bring us down to earth at His 2nd coming makes zero sense. At what appearing [of Christ] did we ascend to heaven if not at His 2nd coming? At His 2nd coming we go up not come down.

So perhaps you mean His 3rd coming

I know that is what you mean, you suppose after the rap there will be 7 years of tribulation in which all evil is destroyed, then we come back after the 7 years.

It is not bible

Evil is not destroyed but the man of sin and all those who come up with him to Jerusalem will be destroyed but the devil is not destroyed, he is locked up, not for 7 years but for 1, 000 years after which he is released to create havoc again.

So the 1, 000 years commence at the Rapture.

There will be 7 years, not of tribulation [which came from Antichrist] but of God's wrath. The church will be gathered to her eternal home and the Jews will be gathered to their home in Israel, kept safe from God's wrath.

Then the great promises God has made to the Jews will come to pass, the great Jewish dream which they still believe, they shall rule the world with Messiah from Jerusalem.

Nations will beat their sword into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks nor shall they learn war anymore in the great kingdom of peace and prosperity. They will flock to Jerusalem to learn the ways of the God of Jacob and walk in His paths. These are the promises God made to the Jews ... which He must and will fulfil.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Time for you to do your homework bro. Take a few months, go thru all of this, and then submit your thesis. Many of us have already done so and achieved our Masters in Church Eschatology.

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No such thing as a preteib rapture.

You are following the teachings of man that twist the plain and clear words of God.

Just read the words of the Lord Jesus Christ in 3 minutes to discover the truth.


No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

• The resurrection occurs on the last day.
• The rapture takes place AFTER the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
• The rapture occurs at His coming.
• His coming is called the day of the Lord.
• The wicked are destroyed at His coming.
• The antichrist is destroyed at His coming.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3



And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8


Three things that occur at His coming:

1. The resurrection
2. The rapture
3. The destruction of the antichrist and his followers

JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Hi, justpassinthrough.

I have a question regarding what you've put ^ .

Am I wrong in assuming that, since you've bolded two parts in that sentence (consistent with the bolding in the rest of your post), you believe the bolded parts take place at the same time-slot (at Christ's Second Coming Rev19)?

Or do you not believe that? And if not, why not... and (instead) what kind of time-frame might you see intervening between the two bolded portions and what is your biblical reasoning for that view?

Thanks = )




[I think one poster believes these two items both occur at the same time... but I forget WHO]

To be clear, here is what I believe takes place at His coming:


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3



And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8


Three things that occur at His coming:

1. The resurrection
2. The rapture
3. The destruction of the antichrist and his followers

 

[justpassinthrough]

When it comes to the wicked / unsaved at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth, Luke 17:27,29 uses the Greek word "G622 - apollymi - destroyed" [all].

When it come to "the lawless one" ("the man of sin") at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth, 2Th2:8b uses the Greek word "G2673 - katargéō - annul, bring to naught, bring to an end... (kjv)destroy"

[quoting from BibleHub, for the latter word ^ ]

HELPS Word-studies
2673 katargéō (from 2596 /katá, "down to a point," intensifying 691 /argéō, "inactive, idle") – properly, idle down, rendering something inert ("completely inoperative"); i.e. being of no effect (totally without force, completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); "to make idle or inactive" (so also in Euripides, Phoen., 753, Abbott-Smith).
["2673 (katargéō) means 'to make completely inoperative' or 'to put out of use,' according to TDNT (1.453)" (J. Rodman Williams, Renewal Theology "God, the World & Redemption," 389).]

[and]

2 Thessalonians 2:8 V-FIA-3S
GRK: αὐτοῦ καὶ καταργήσει τῇ ἐπιφανείᾳ
NAS: of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance
KJV: and shall destroy with the brightness
INT: of him and annul by the appearing

[end quoting from BibleHub]





However, the Greek word used in 1Thess5:3 is "G3639 - olethros - destruction" (used also in 1Tim6:9, see below):

[quoting from BibleHub]

1 Timothy 6:9 N-AMS
GRK: ἀνθρώπους εἰς ὄλεθρον καὶ ἀπώλειαν
NAS: plunge men into ruin and destruction.
KJV: men in destruction and perdition.
INT: men into ruin and destruction

[and]

HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

[end quoting from BibleHub]




Note: "ruination" can unfold over time... it doesn't necessarily mean struck dead that instant (same as in 1Tim6:9... which verse distinguishes between "ruin [G3939]" and the other Greek word used in that verse "[G684] apōleian / apóleia - destruction / perdition").



Bear in mind that 1Th5:3 (with its referring to the ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" time period) ALSO speaks of it as being "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman with child... and Jesus spoke of that very thing, when He referred to "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" which PRECEDE and LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth (IOW, they do not COMMENCE at the moment of His RETURN to the earth Rev19, but instead commence some time PRIOR to that point).



The INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" Paul is referencing in 1Th5:3 (which KICKS OFF "the day of the Lord" time period) is the SAME thing Jesus spoke of in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 -- "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

• Do you believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture takes place at His coming?

• Do you believe the destruction of the antichrist takes place at His coming?

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8








JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Here you go bro. A critical study everyone should be acquainted with: "birth pang" "birth pangs" "hosper"

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Simple basic scripture that is easy to read and understand.



For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

• Do you believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture takes place at His coming?

• Do you believe the destruction of the antichrist takes place at His coming?

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8





JPT

 

[presidente]

Again, ALL "Son of man cometh / coming / shall come / coming of / etc" speaks to His Second Coming to the earth -designation,

Sounds good. But you should also note that
1. The rapture happens at 'the coming of the Lord' according to the one passage from which we get the word 'rapture' (a theological term derived from the Latin translation of the passage.)
2. There is no scripture to support two comings of the Lord before the thousand year reign.

to judge and to reign (be pondering what Revelation says LEADS UP TO that point, and what OT passages CORRESPOND to some of those passages);

--consider: the ones Jesus is speaking to here are the ones specifically here in this text:
3And of Him sitting upon the Mount of Olives, opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked Him in private, [1/3 of the 12] 4“Tell us when these things will be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be accomplished?”

5And Jesus began to say to them, “Take heed, lest [...]" (parallel Matt24 text);


--consider: the "ye / you" of the Olivet Discourse is a consistent and "proleptic 'you'" (meaning, basically, all those in the future OF THE SAME CATEGORY-

You have just argued against pre-trib here. Do you think Peter, James, John and Andrew.... or 'his disciples' .from Matthew 24 will go up in the rapture? Do you think the rapture is just for Gentile believers? Paul wrote 'we' which are alive and remain in the rapture passage. He called himself a Jew. Jewish believers are 'in Christ'.

You should interpret 'proleptic you' to include the same category-- those who are in Christ before the millennial reign, members of the body of Christ.

-Which "category" is those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom WAS PROMISED--and related to their Q of Jesus in Acts 1:6 regarding its TIMING, which TIMING-issue they didn't grasp;

The apostles were both Jewish and members of the body of Christ. So they are in two groups. The restoration of Israel is something Gentile believers can anticipate as well. I'm not sure what this point has to do with either proplectic you or the pretrib rapture theory.

Again, let the readers compare Matt24:29-31 with the Isa27:9,12-13 passage it corresponds to... to see "WHO" and "TO WHERE" and "IN WHAT MANNER" they are gathered);

Just because both passages use 'gather' doesn't mean they are talking about the same thing. We need to look at the rest of the context of the passage. Matthew 24 speaks of the gathering of the elect at the coming of the Son of man.

Who is 'the elect'. Does that mean Israel as a nation? It can refer to believing Israel. But I John is also written to the elect lady, and it is a bit far fetched to think the church he was addressing was exclusively Jewish. The Colossian church weren't all Jewish were they (Colossians 3:12)?

Jesus actual audience in Matthew 24, for example, will go up in the rapture. It doesn't make sense to argue for a proplectic you if the passages giving warnings for a time AFTER the tribulation if all the people in his audience' category are not going to be gone at that time. Why does the passage say it is written to disciples if the key factor is that they are Israelites? That doesn' t make sense.

We also have to compare what Jesus said with apostolic teaching. Paul wrote of the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him. Jesus spoke of.... after the tribulation.... the coming of the Son of Man and the gathering of the elect. Jesus warned his own disciples about being ready for the coming of the Son of man, set AFTER THE TRIBULATION. Could you address this in a comment?

The big problem here is you have no passage talking about there being more than one 'coming of the Lord' that the church/disciples are supposed to wait for. The Lord's disciples are instructed to be ready for the coming of the Son of man after the tribulation. There is no passage telling them about a coming of the Lord before the tribulation. I Thessalonians 4, the one 'rapture' passage that uses 'caught up', tells us this happens at 'the coming of the Lord.' Could you address this in a comment? What do you do with this problem with your viewpoint?

You are taking a theory that is totally external to scripture and using it to create a separate event that is not taught in scripture as a separate event. Do you see the problem here?

--consider: "the abomination [singular] of desolation [singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet" refers to the reference to it in Dan12:11 (which chpt starts out by identifying as its subject "thy [Daniel's] people" and the reference to "a nation [singular]" speaking of Israel in particular v.1... the WISE of whom [per vv.3,10] "WILL UNDERSTAND" [and they, the WISE of them, also are said to "turn many to righteousness"]--at the time-frame being referenced--yet future to us)

Afterward through Paul (and apostles and prophets) the mystery of the Gentiles was revealed. That is that Gentile believers are fellow heirs with Israel. We get to go up in the same rapture that they do at the coming of the Lord. Much of the Old Testament is Israel focused in its wording. That does not detract from the fact that Gentiles also get to join in the promises through faith in the Messiah..

Well, I better stop there... as I'm likely wasting my breath, so to speak, as this post won't be READ for its lengthiness... *sigh*...

I read your post. It's not so much lenghiness that makes your posts difficult its.

1. Lengthiness of sentences
2. Excessive use of brackets
3. Excessive use of font styles, bolds, italics, caps. This interferes with sight-word vocabulary, kind of like when lawyers put the most important part of the contract in all caps to make sure no one reads it carefully or understands it.
4. Using verse references instead of quoting or paraphrasing verses, pushing the work onto your reader, as if you are more focused on saying what you want to say than communicating the idea to the reader.
5. Not really making the actual point you think can be inferred from passages. If the point is not reasonable to your reader, the reader might not guess it. It takes effort to try to read someone's mind.
6. Being displeased when someone guesses your conclusion and gets it wrong.

 

[presidente]

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

• Do you believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture takes place at His coming?
• Do you believe the destruction of the antichrist takes place at His coming?

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8

JPT

Yes, and if one argues that there is more than one coming of the Lord, then where is the scripture to back that up?

( I removed some spaces in the quote above.)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@justpassinthrough ,

Hi, I understand what you believe about His / Jesus' "coming" and about "our rapture".


What I'm asking you specifically about, regarding your Post #345 ( https://christianchat.com/threads/c...pseudo-rapture-doctrine-4.208914/post-4998773 ), which I cannot tell by your postings, is:

--WHEN do you believe "the man of sin / lawless one will be REVEALED" (v.8a) in relation, time-wise, to the point-in-ime that he will be "DESTROYED" (v.8b) by "the MANIFESTATION of the presence/parousia" of Jesus?

Do you believe those two things (v.8a and v.8b) occur AT THE SAME time-slot, or are they separated by some spans of time? and if so, "how much time" separates, or comes between, these two occurrences, as you see it? and what scripture informs you of such?


Do you have any thoughts on those particular items, v.8a and v.8b, and whether any kind of "TIME-amount" separates the two?

Thanks.

 

[cv5]

Just read the words of the Lord Jesus Christ in 3 minutes to discover the truth.

So you digested all of the content of those links I provided in a mere 3 minutes? Frankly I find that hard to believe.

In fact I find that brevity, sloth and lassitude to be a common problem with the post-trib theory.

On the other hand, pre-tribbers get the gold star of approval as far as scholarship and sweat equity that much is clear.

 

[cv5]

1. Lengthiness of sentences
2. Excessive use of brackets
3. Excessive use of font styles, bolds, italics, caps. This interferes with sight-word vocabulary, kind of like when lawyers put the most
4. Using verse references instead of quoting or paraphrasing verses, pushing the work onto your reader, as if you are more focused on
5. Not really making the actual point you think can be inferred from passages. If the point is not reasonable to your reader, the
6. Being displeased when someone guesses your conclusion and gets it wrong.

7. Excessive scholarship of sublime irrefutable quality and quantity.

You forgot one item bro.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You are never ever "wasting your breath" posting here on CC bro.....

Nice thoughts, bro... thanks for the encouragement...

... much needed, in view of the fact that my fingers are falling off and I have a major crick in my neck from all the typing, of late (painfully-slow typist, here. LOL)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The last day is at the end of the 1, 000 years ... everybody who ever lived will be raised for judgement, excepting of course the righteous who are already raised.

So, it sounds to me as though you are saying that when Jesus said, "and I will raise him up IN THE LAST DAY," that He wasn't referencing BELIEVERS [/the righteous]??

(John 6:44, for example - John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (biblehub.com) )

John 6:40, for another example - "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at [/in] the last day. " - https://biblehub.com/john/6-44.htm





Hmmm... your viewpoint is a head-scratcher. lol

 

[cv5]

Nice thoughts, bro... thanks for the encouragement...

... much needed, in view of the fact that my fingers are falling off and I have a major crick in my neck from all the typing, of late (painfully-slow typist, here. LOL)

Truth is......I have dozens (if not hundreds) of your posts bookmarked. Far more than anyone else by a longshot. They are proving an invaluable resource in my preaching efforts.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There will be 7 years, [...] but of God's wrath. The church will be gathered to her eternal home and the Jews will be gathered to their home in Israel, kept safe from God's wrath.

Okay, what I'm gathering from reading your post (correct me if I've misunderstood you), you believe that "the church will be gathered to her eternal home" (via "rapture") AT THE TIME OF REV19 (Christ's Second Coming)? Is that right?
And that, FOLLOWING this is when "God's wrath" unfolds upon the earth (I assume you mean, by means of the "7 Vials"??), which you believe take place AFTER the events shown in Rev19 (Christ's coming / His Second Coming commonly-called), which "wrath" will then/thereafter last FOR SEVEN YEARS? Am I reading your viewpoint correctly?

 

[presidente]

So you digested all of the content of those links I provided in a mere 3 minutes? Frankly I find that hard to believe.

In fact I find that brevity, slot

On the other hand, pre-tribbers get the gold star of approval as far as scholarship and sweat equity that much is clear.

Nice thoughts, bro... thanks for the encouragement...

... much needed, in view of the fact that my fingers are falling off and I have a major crick in my neck from all the typing, of late (painfully-slow typist, here. LOL)

This is ironic considering your frequent dribe by comments and lack of depth of many of your own posts.

 

[presidente]

@justpassinthrough ,

Hi, I understand what you believe about His / Jesus' "coming" and about "our rapture".


What I'm asking you specifically about, regarding your Post #345 ( https://christianchat.com/threads/c...pseudo-rapture-doctrine-4.208914/post-4998773 ), which I cannot tell by your postings, is:

--WHEN do you believe "the man of sin / lawless one will be REVEALED" (v.8a) in relation, time-wise, to the point-in-ime that he will be "DESTROYED" (v.8b) by "the MANIFESTATION of the presence/parousia" of Jesus?

Do you believe those two things (v.8a and v.8b) occur AT THE SAME time-slot, or are they separated by some spans of time? and if so, "how much time" separates, or comes between, these two occurrences, as you see it? and what scripture informs you of such?


Do you have any thoughts on those particular items, v.8a and v.8b, and whether any kind of "TIME-amount" separates the two?

Thanks.

Man of sin revealed first before the coming of the Lord takes place, then some time later the destroyed at the brightness of the coming of the Lord.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ also occurs at the Lord's coming.

In Revelation the order it is laid out in is the Rider on the white horse passage, then we read about the Beast and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire, then the first resurrection, but we know the rapture happens right after the resurrection because of I Thessalonians 4.

I Corinthians 15 also tells us that they that are Christ's will be made alive at his coming.

 

[cv5]

Man of sin revealed first before the coming of the Lord takes place, then some time later the destroyed at the brightness of the coming of the Lord.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ also occurs at the Lord's coming.

In Revelation the order it is laid out in is the Rider on the white horse passage, then we read about the Beast and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire, then the first resurrection, but we know the rapture happens right after the resurrection because of I Thessalonians 4.

I Corinthians 15 also tells us that they that are Christ's will be made alive at his coming.

Bro.....I have dozens and dozens of TDW's exquisitely thought-out posts bookmarked that I can provide to you. Believe me it's going to help unscramble your brain.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
@justpassinthrough ,

Hi, I understand what you believe about His / Jesus' "coming" and about "our rapture".

What I'm asking you specifically about, regarding your Post #345 ( https://christianchat.com/threads/c...pseudo-rapture-doctrine-4.208914/post-4998773 ), which I cannot tell by your postings, is:

--WHEN do you believe "the man of sin / lawless one will be REVEALED" (v.8a) in relation, time-wise, to the point-in-ime that he will be "DESTROYED" (v.8b) by "the MANIFESTATION of the presence/parousia" of Jesus?

Do you believe those two things (v.8a and v.8b) occur AT THE SAME time-slot, or are they separated by some spans of time? and if so, "how much time" separates, or comes between, these two occurrences, as you see it? and what scripture informs you of such?

Do you have any thoughts on those particular items, v.8a and v.8b, and whether any kind of "TIME-amount" separates the two?

Thanks.

[end ^ of TDW's questions to JPT]

Man of sin revealed first before the coming of the Lord takes place, then some time later the destroyed at the brightness of the coming of the Lord.
The resurrection of the dead in Christ also occurs at the Lord's coming.
In Revelation the order it is laid out in is the Rider on the white horse passage, then we read about the Beast and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire,

YAY! YAY! YAY! I feel we are making some headway!! (on parts we AGREE on!)

GREAT!


Allow me to focus in on the parts of your post that (as I am in agreement with you on these) I've bolded and colored, in order to make my next point (in the form of a question, for this post)... then we can go from there... one step at a time.



So here's my next question (besides a question I left for you at the bottom of my Post #270 and the ones I put in my Post #282, that go along with this discussion)...

here's my first question (on what you put in your post, above, in the quote ^ ):


Okay, you and I agree that the rider on the white horse (at Seal #1) [AS BEING "the man of sin be revealed"] is what takes place first in the "spans of time" [intervening] before he is later "destroyed" at the MANIFESTATION of His "presence / parousia / coming" (in Rev19)... So far, we are in agreement on these points. YAY!! (V.8a does NOT take place at the same time-slot that v.8b takes place. GREAT! We agree! We even agree that the "be revealed" re: the man of sin takes place AT SEAL #1. WOOT! I perceive some headway in this discussion! )


Now (here's the question I'm addressing in this post)...


In the 2Th2 text, do you see anything (per the text) that must immediately precede the "be revealed" regarding "the man of sin":


--v.3 "[...] [unless/if not] shall have come _____[blank] FIRST/FIRSTLY, *and* shall have been revealed the man of sin/anomias..."


--v.6 "[now ye know] what is restraining, SO THAT he may be revealed in his time"


--vv.7b-8a "the one restraining at present will restrain UNTIL out of the midst he become, AND THEN [kai tote] shall that wicked be revealed..."




Do you agree that these verses show something that PRECEDES the "be revealed" of the man of sin?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

--v.6 "[now ye know] what is restraining, SO THAT he may be revealed in his time"

Actually, the word I capitalized should read: "FOR [to a particular purpose or result-->] him to be revealed in his time"




(which as I see it, reads basically the same way... but I wanted to correct that in order to clarify the actual word there)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

be revealed"] is what takes place first in the "spans of time" [intervening] before he is later "destroyed" at the MANIFESTATION of His "presence / parousia / coming" (in Rev19)

To clarify what I put here, I think my intended meaning might have come across better had I written:



"[...] be revealed" v.8a] is what takes place, WITH the "spans of time" [intervening] before he is later "destroyed" [v.8b] at the MANIFESTATION of His "presence / parousia / coming" (in Rev19)"