Hello I think I have a problem about doctrine.

I'm sorry to say I don't view works of righteousness in that way. I see works of righteousness as the works God appointed for us to do prior to His creating us, to be performed by us in due time throughout our lives. But we tend to twist the meaning of those works and make them mean that we accumulate them like putting cash in the bank so that we can buy our salvation from God because in the end we earn it through our works and and become our own savior. Am I just building a straw man here? I'd really like to know if I'm wrong about this, but if I am wrong please let me know how I can live my life without knowing whether I've done enough good works to secure my salvation. I'm already answer enough, and God says he wants to give me rest.

I'm not very active here I don't know what various believers here believe. I don't mind differences in the jots and tittles, such as dunking versus sprinkling, the various eschatologies for the most part, who reads which Bible for the most part, and I don't divide with believers about some of the heavier things such as the preservation of the saints. But what does bug me is when rightness-with-God through works creeps in to teachings. So I really hope I don't offend any reader's sensibilities, and I will refuse to joust with anyone over this, but I must ask about Joyce Meyer. It turns out that influential people in my church follow her. To me the wellspring of her preaching flows from her belief that God blessed Abraham because of Abraham's obedience, and spins it out to mean that for every believer who is in want, it is essentially a matter of lack of obedience and we better get our acts straight before God can bless us. Please let me state the way I see this: before Abraham obeyed, God told him to leave his people and his land and go to a strange Land where God will bless him and multiply him into many nations. Then, when Abraham's hand was raised and about to come down, God restrained him, provided a sacrifice, and continued to keep his promises to Abraham. Whenever I think deeply enough about that I just melt because it's a story about me and how God unilaterally moved me out of the world into a new place of various kinds of richness and peace and a certain knowledge that God will never leave me nor forsake me not even through the death of my body, which by the way is dying and in pain, and I see no conditions placed on that promise. I'm still on the precipice when it comes to the question of whether, when God called me, (and he did, one day 35 yrs ago while I was in a 2 1/2 hour commute, through radio ministries), whether I obeyed His call by my own human will or I was drawn by God's irresistible grace. It sure seems like I responded immediately to His grace snd the presence of His Person.
Actually I tend to think it may be an improper question and only God really knows what happens right there. So to finish, maybe some people can please advise me on what to do about this discovery of possible works related righteousness in dome of the main thinkers in my church? I do know that kind words are better than wrath, and that no one is unwillingly taught. At least I've learned that by now. TY.

what does bug me is when rightness-with-God through works creeps in to teachings. So I really hope I don't offend any reader's sensibilities, and I will refuse to joust with anyone over this, but I must ask about Joyce Meyer. It turns out that influential people in my church follow her...we tend to twist the meaning of those works and make them mean that we accumulate them like putting cash in the bank so that we can buy our salvation from God because in the end we earn it through our works and and become our own savior. Am I just building a straw man here?

I'm not very active here I don't know what various believers here believe. I don't mind differences in the jots and tittles, such as dunking versus sprinkling, the various eschatologies for the most part, who reads which Bible for the most part, and I don't divide with believers about some of the heavier things such as the preservation of the saints. But what does bug me is when rightness-with-God through works creeps in to teachings. So I really hope I don't offend any reader's sensibilities, and I will refuse to joust with anyone over this, but I must ask about Joyce Meyer. It turns out that influential people in my church follow her. To me the wellspring of her preaching flows from her belief that God blessed Abraham because of Abraham's obedience, and spins it out to mean that for every believer who is in want, it is essentially a matter of lack of obedience and we better get our acts straight before God can bless us. Please let me state the way I see this: before Abraham obeyed, God told him to leave his people and his land and go to a strange Land where God will bless him and multiply him into many nations. Then, when Abraham's hand was raised and about to come down, God restrained him, provided a sacrifice, and continued to keep his promises to Abraham. Whenever I think deeply enough about that I just melt because it's a story about me and how God unilaterally moved me out of the world into a new place of various kinds of richness and peace and a certain knowledge that God will never leave me nor forsake me not even through the death of my body, which by the way is dying and in pain, and I see no conditions placed on that promise. I'm still on the precipice when it comes to the question of whether, when God called me, (and he did, one day 35 yrs ago while I was in a 2 1/2 hour commute, through radio ministries), whether I obeyed His call by my own human will or I was drawn by God's irresistible grace. It sure seems like I responded immediately to His grace snd the presence of His Person.
Actually I tend to think it may be an improper question and only God really knows what happens right there. So to finish, maybe some people can please advise me on what to do about this discovery of possible works related righteousness in dome of the main thinkers in my church? I do know that kind words are better than wrath, and that no one is unwillingly taught. At least I've learned that by now. TY.

To me the wellspring of her preaching flows from her belief that God blessed Abraham because of Abraham's obedience, and spins it out to mean that for every believer who is in want, it is essentially a matter of lack of obedience and we better get our acts straight before God can bless us.

God unilaterally moved me

It sure seems like I responded immediately to His grace snd the presence of His Person.

In full disclosure I do not like the messages Joyce Meyers and Joel Osteen preach primarily because they're boring. At best, they preach a carnal message to carnal believers. At worst, they preach with the intent to keep the hearers of their messages ignorant so they can cash in on their dependence. I'm not certain which it is so I avoid them completely.

With that said, many Christian churches make salvation the end result of the Bible message. Yet, reconciliation to God, our Father is the central tenet of the whole Bible. To restore God's original intent for Adam for all who believe is what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross and what God secured for us by His resurrection. So, when we are restored to God, we certainly should not simply wait to die so we can go to heaven or only live a life to avoid sin. In Christ we should expect to be called into works by which the Father may be seen in our actions and our character. By obeying the Lord AFTER we are saved we become the light of the world, not as carnal children of God newly born into the house of God. Wisdom does not send a child as an ambassador.

Obedience is important but it's obedience to God not obedience to shysters that He's looking for. Obedience to God isn't the same things as trying to earn salvation. Good works can't earn us points with God but He does test us to strengthen our faith. It's unfortunate that this distinction has been lost for so many.

When it comes to Joyce Meyer, when she says "obedience" you can replace that with "give money to my ministry." I remember finding out my mother was a Joel Osteen fan; I was flabbergasted. Many people who aren't firmly grounded in God's word have fallen for celebrities like Meyer and Osteen.

As for what you should do about your discovery that people in your congregation follow Joyce Meyer, I really don't know. Like with my mother, I'm sure you'll see them in a different light. You might just wait for the subject to come up and casually ask if they think she might be teaching a works-based righteousness. They'll probably either respond by giving you their thoughts on the matter or asking why you ask. If the former, just listen and try to understand their point of view and then mull it over. At least this way you'll know where they're coming from. But be ready for the latter response by having a couple of examples you can give that make you feel like Meyer teaches works-based salvation.

Well there is a truth when it comes to Gods promises and obedience. I have no problem talking about this if you would like. You asked something about Joyce Meyer who like Joel Osteen are not false teachers. It is ironic what you asked about you witnessed happen here. If Obedience and works means not obeying what God said you witnessed no "works" by some done here. Praise God we all believe something that another believer would laugh at and make fun of you for.. really? Some here have been treated exactly like this and they never once spoke negative about you just loved you back.

So as one said lack of obedience yes amen. Obedience I see this and the work as being told to pray all the time to keep Gods word before my eyes day and night to love my enemy to share Christ (witness) shall I do on? If I do not do these things or kind a do them I will not be walking in what God promised as He told me to and other time "if I" and blessings. The closer I get to Him the closer He gets to me. The more a I am faithful in the small things He gives me the greater that grows and grows. So yes to obey God one could say are works some say it differently praise God.

To read this world is not my home yet.. how can the world and believer walk hand in hand? At times it like here now you do get that thought man I do now want to be known as a Christian. Part of you wants to listen to the flesh and say "yes you know everyone has a black sheep in the family". But you toss it out.. these are just feelings of the flesh and though you did nothing you look at Him and stand in the gap for them saying forgive me lord. How in all this can you not see that every word matters with God. Ever word has some kind of reaction so to speak in Heaven. Your not just some person of this world you are the righteousness of God you are created in His image.

Sometimes you have to weed through what some say to see what they are saying you don't just toss it out because you don't personally like them. I have learned so much from my brothers and sisters in the Word of Faith. I have learned so much from those that are flip side of word of faith like Billy Graham or John MacArthur or the countless men woman of God that came before use and laid this foundation we now stand on which some are...hmm bend on tearing down.

So I am sorry to break this to some since you brought it up but can learn so much from our brothers and sisters (Word of Faith). Sorry but this is on body and you the hand don't like the foot.. get over it for its HIS body and we need each other. Oh man...what they lack you have and what you lack they have...how can you not see this? if its not done by love you are blinded. Its ok to disagree speak words of life.. show mercy grace unto the hearers.. hello works obedience.

Hi, Raggedcloth.

I'm definitely not a man-pleaser, so here are my thoughts on the matter.

First of all, I am DEFINITELY NOT a fan of Joyce Meyer in any way, shape, or form. I determined her to be a false teacher a long time ago, and that determination has never changed.

That said, it doesn't mean that there isn't any truth to what she said (according to your testimony here) about Abraham's obedience.

James said (even though people don't like to hear it):

James 2

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

"The scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness" (Genesis 15:6) "WHEN he", Abraham, "had offered Isaac his son upon the altar" or WHEN he sought to do so in OBEDIENCE to what God had commanded him to do. God had previously told Abraham that "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" (Genesis 21:12) or that Jesus, who is Abraham's seed, would come through the descendancy or lineage of Isaac. God tested Abraham's faith in order to see whether or not Abraham truly believed him or had faith in what he had told him, and it wasn't until Abraham had corresponding works or actions to back up what he professed to believe in that this scripture pertaining to Abraham's righteousness by faith was fulfilled. This is a biblical truth whether anybody likes it or not. Faith without works or corresponding actions that align themselves with what we profess to believe is as DEAD as the body without the spirit is.

Let's bring this to our current day and age.

Here's a quick litmus test for all of us.

Who here believes the following?

2 Peter 3

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Do we really believe that the present "heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat", and that "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"? Do our lifestyles, or actions, or works truly align themselves with such a professed belief? Are we truly living like strangers and pilgrims who are passing the time of our sojourning here in fear, or are we so rooted and grounded in the affairs of this present evil world that we're basically useless or not meet for the master's use?

I'll leave that question for everyone here to answer for themselves.

Whatever answer anybody comes up with, faith without works or corresponding actions IS DEAD.

Not because I say so, but because God's word says so.

If our actions or our works don't align themselves with that which we profess to believe in, then our faith is no better than the faith of demons, and we'd all be wise to recognize and embrace such a biblical truth.

This is how I perceive works...

If you think about works related righteousness in us is similar in terms of the nature of things such as earthworks, waterworks, fireworks, windworks, etc., then you see how we display God's work in us.

John 3
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘Youb must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

That is, earthworks are born of the Native Americans forming them, waterworks are born of engineers fashioning them, and fireworks are born of pyrotechnicians creating them, and so it is with us relative doing to the works of God. As David prayed in his psalm, "Create in me a clean heart...(Psalm 51:10a)." after having committed what might've been his most grievous sin. And we look upon that, his prayer, now and are amazed, aren't we? Maybe even to the point of oohs and ahhs, and soo amazing! David's prayer shows off his belief and trust in God's character and ability to cleanse and transform him, "...and renew a right spirit within me...(Psalm51:10b)."

“David's prayer shows off his belief and trust in God's character and ability to cleanse and transform him, "...and renew a right spirit within me...”

The gospel is Gods answer to David’s call for mercy and remaking man

“But ye have not so learned Christ; if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;( renew my spirit )

and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

( notice all Of the instructions of what to do and not do that come with the gospel accepting the knowledge in the gospel is what changes the spirit of the mind )

Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: neither give place to the devil.

Let him that stole steal no more repent ) but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:20-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

At he doctrine teaching us what to do and not do accepting it is what changes us from the old to the new because it changes what we think and believe and what we know is acceptable and not acceptable to God do we can repent and live better lives by faith

Thank you for that. I know this about Calvin, from his own words: he was a desolate, quite young man on a country walk, wrestling with his conscience which was fiercely accusing him, and he fully expected God would be forced to be faithful to his own threatenings as Calvin put it, even though God himself much regretted that he had to be faithful in that way because in reality God actually liked Calvin despite Calvin's glaringly obvious failure to live up to His standards. Calvin had the word of God in his heart since childhood and during that part of that walk the words "the righteous are justified by faith" jumped out of his memory and slayed him. It's good to pack away the word of God in your heart, right, because you never know when a single phrase might jump out and save you, or someone else. That was when Calvin realized that God himself made the decision to bestow the faith that Calvin could live by. I don't feel right now like trying to explain what it would be like for me to live a life of always striving for God's approval, but I know there's no end of that sort of work and that I wouldn't feel satisfied until I unhealthily burned myself out by trying to be my own savior. God wants us to enter His rest from works of righteousness. Gosh, I just keep going don't I. That's all I can say about that because I could look up 50 verses, but who would that convince?

I totally agree.
Any works of righteousness that "we" do is really the Holy Spirit working in us and through us.[/QUOlte.
That's exactly right. And and the pagans during Christ's time understood this clearly and mocked the Way, calling them Christians, meaning Little Christs. The pagans at that time and place new very well that Jesus offended the Pharisees by calling himself God. Though we are not perfect it's still true that Christians are the body of the living God on Earth. I don't want to complicate this by spinning off more words.

We are saved by grace for good works. So as a Christian, we will do good works. But as my grandmom use to say "We are all level at the foot of the cross".

Did your grandmum give you scriptures to undergird your faith in that truth? I can think of several right off the top of my head and I'm no scholar by any means. Would you share some of what gives special meaning to the Levelness statement your g-mum gave to you? I would love to know.

Well there is a truth when it comes to Gods promises and obedience. I have no problem talking about this if you would like. You asked something about Joyce Meyer who like Joel Osteen are not false teachers. It is ironic what you asked about you witnessed happen here. If Obedience and works means not obeying what God said you witnessed no "works" by some done here. Praise God we all believe something that another believer would laugh at and make fun of you for.. really? Some here have been treated exactly like this and they never once spoke negative about you just loved you back.

So as one said lack of obedience yes amen. Obedience I see this and the work as being told to pray all the time to keep Gods word before my eyes day and night to love my enemy to share Christ (witness) shall I do on? If I do not do these things or kind a do them I will not be walking in what God promised as He told me to and other time "if I" and blessings. The closer I get to Him the closer He gets to me. The more a I am faithful in the small things He gives me the greater that grows and grows. So yes to obey God one could say are works some say it differently praise God.

To read this world is not my home yet.. how can the world and believer walk hand in hand? At times it like here now you do get that thought man I do now want to be known as a Christian. Part of you wants to listen to the flesh and say "yes you know everyone has a black sheep in the family". But you toss it out.. these are just feelings of the flesh and though you did nothing you look at Him and stand in the gap for them saying forgive me lord. How in all this can you not see that every word matters with God. Ever word has some kind of reaction so to speak in Heaven. Your not just some person of this world you are the righteousness of God you are created in His image.

Sometimes you have to weed through what some say to see what they are saying you don't just toss it out because you don't personally like them. I have learned so much from my brothers and sisters in the Word of Faith. I have learned so much from those that are flip side of word of faith like Billy Graham or John MacArthur or the countless men woman of God that came before use and laid this foundation we now stand on which some are...hmm bend on tearing down.

So I am sorry to break this to some since you brought it up but can learn so much from our brothers and sisters (Word of Faith). Sorry but this is on body and you the hand don't like the foot.. get over it for its HIS body and we need each other. Oh man...what they lack you have and what you lack they have...how can you not see this? if its not done by love you are blinded. Its ok to disagree speak words of life.. show mercy grace unto the hearers.. hello works obedience.