The True Church

Upon this rock I will build my church...

2 thoughts:

1. Will build looks to a future occurrence.
2. If the rock is the clear revelation that Jesus is the actual expected "Christ ", those who believed in earlier times exercised belief in a promised Messiah but didn't make the connection to Jesus.

In regards to the "will build" or "shall build" in most translations, it makes this Greek word appear future. However, this is an unusual occurrence of this Greek Word: οικοδομησω, which is a Progressive Future Active Indicative verb. Which means: I am building and will continue to build.

Hope that helps.

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭8:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.


…And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13, 16-19, 39-40‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:11-13, 19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Understanding that there was a day and that Christ was the Messiah is a huge leap.
He recognized that there was a resurrection. But did he know in particular that it was Jesus?

Is it?

Did the disciples fully know themselves even as they heard it? Go to the gospel of Mark and check out their responses to Jesus teaching them about his impending death.
Or, just observe this site for awhile.

That's fair enough. But that means God would have had to give him the particular revelation of Jesus as Messiah.
Scripture doesn't record this and from the scripture you gave it is a possibility. Personally, since God has increased revelation of Himself over time, I would tend to believe that those in earlier times would generally know less, not more.

Also, glad to see you in the forums again.

Thank you, Cameron It is true that even to this day there are those who do not know Who Jesus is,
including some counted among those who call themselves Christian, and I agree that the apostles, too,
were not always shown to be the sharpest or brightest or most illuminated prior to the death and
resurrection of Christ and their subsequent baptism by fire and the Holy Spirit of God. I also agree
that God has revealed more over time to be disseminated to the masses, but I would not necessarily
conclude from this that there were those among the prophets who were likewise oblivious.

Isaiah comes to mind also

X
Isaiah 9:6

Fine. If you are going to play the Isaiah card I give up.

I think if one is being honest with themselves, that one will realize, they are not the sharpest tools in the shed either. Many of the things we see the disciples do or say - all believers are guilty of repeating. We just don't like to admit it.

I agree with you. Some prophets had a clear picture of the coming Messiah and His trials. Like Isa. 53:5-9.

before moses law is one time , during Moses law is another time , and after Moses law what was before becomes complete

before Moses law was the promise to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations and through his seed all nations and peoples of the earth would be blessed

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then four hundred thirty years later came the law of Moses but it’s not of the promise

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, ( the promise of the seed )

the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:13-14, 16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so you have Abraham’s blessing and melchezideks priesthood ( genesis 14)

established first and then four hundred years later you had Moses and the levites and the law for those flesh children who weren’t of faith ( which we find out that story beginning exodus 1)

Paul’s really explainkng so much in this single chapter the law which came after the promise made to Abraham was only until Jesus came with the fulfillment of the promise. It’s so harsh because they were so sinful

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions,

till the seed ( Jesus ) should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law,

shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under ( the law ) a schoolmaster.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19-20, 23-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Abraham isaac Jacob all lived and died before the law of Moses was given those who died in Noah’s time , from adams day forward until the Lord spoke from Sinai the Ten Commandments and named the levites the preists and Moses the mediator.

all of them lived apart from the law by faith in God ( Christ ) a man like Enoch for instance

“And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: and Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Thats what Christianity calls us to do walk with God and be translated into his kingdom when we leave this world like Enoch

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. ….Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16, 24-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Like enoch we are called to follow and walk with Jesus and when we die we’re promised well Be translated into his kingdom because believing the gospel is pleasing to the lord believers of Jesus have the testimony that they pleased God

Like enoch it doesn’t say he was perfect it says he walked with God , disciples of Jesus walk with God

From Isaiah 53

How would you factor in the inspiration of the Spirit. There is no required understanding if they are moved along. There is no scriptural evidence that clearly states that the writers of scripture understood what they wrote. He wrote of Darius, a foreign and very future King as Israel's deliverer. Do you think he understood the meaning of all that?

BTW...didn't Isaiah run around practically naked for 3 years?

I appreciate all the scripture and various thoughts. Are you saying a perfect understanding wasn't necessary? I would agree with that.

What do you think Abraham had in mind when he told Isaac that God would provide Himself a Lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. (Gen 22:8) This was a divine revelation. He was speaking of Christ as the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world, even as he expected that God would provide a real ram. And if he did indeed sacrifice Isaac, God would resurrect him immediately. Abraham was deemed to be a prophet, and God even gave him a vision of the heavenly city New Jerusalem. "For he looked for a city which has foundations, whose Builder and Maker is God". And Jesus appeared to Abraham several times either as "the Word of the LORD" or as "the Angel of the LORD", (or even as just a man when He spoke of the birth of Isaac).

And yet he still raised up the knife and would have killed Isaac had God not stopped it. So whatever his understanding, it included the possibility of Isaac being sacrificed.
Once God stopped him, there was a ram provided and he received fuller revelation. So the principle of substitutionary atonement was clear. But he didn't call God by the name Jesus did he?

What exactly Abraham knew or didn't understand, I can't say precisely. I simply gave the reasons I believe it to be less than what it fully means.

Yes brother I agree we don’t have to have a perfect understanding for sure

but what I’m saying is early before the law was given the doctrine of the gospel is hidden in scriptire . All we see is a basic understanding that they called on the name of the lord beginning with Seth’s line

“And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But we don’t ever hear the name of the lord until Jesus is declared they called on his name then like we do now

We know they are called the sons of God who called on his name like we are

“which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬
( notice how Jesus genealogical line goes back to Seth )

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬




a basic understanding that God made atonement for them after they transgressed because he makes garments of skin for them to cover thier nakedness and shame this requires a sacrifice of a living creature but we never hear about it until later he was always writing the book of life and his sacrifice was always understood

“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus even hints at the fact that his doctrine is from before the law from the time of Adam before sin

“The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, ( genesis 2) that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.


And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:3-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Sorry if what I’m trying to say isn’t making sense in the early days of creation even as far as Abraham isaac and Jacob they weren’t under Moses law and it’s veil they were dealing with Jesus already but we arent shown the details and actual doctrine none of us really knows what Abraham taught or thought regarding doctrine behavior or anything he just heard what God said believed it and obeyed as God led him

Abraham was walking by faith before the law and after the law the same faith is available to us now but now we get the details of what they knew then

in Abraham’s time was the gospel , then later came the law , then after came the fulfillment of the gospel to the world

Amen!