Ukraine and Russia: Truth and Propaganda

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JohnDB

JohnDB

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#122
Jan 16, 2021
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#122
cv5 said:
No....you've got that all wrong. The vine of the earth is useless to me.
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Then WHY are you parroting word for word the Republicans mantra? (On every topic I might add)
 
cv5

cv5

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#123
Nov 20, 2018
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#123
JohnDB said:
Then WHY are you parroting word for word the Republicans mantra? (On every topic I might add)
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It just seems that way because you are pretty much clueless in making correct calls.
 
JohnDB

JohnDB

Well-known member
#124
Jan 16, 2021
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#124
cv5 said:
It just seems that way because you are pretty much clueless in making correct calls.
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If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and acts like a duck....it's a duck.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#125
Nov 20, 2018
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#125
JohnDB said:
If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and acts like a duck....it's a duck.
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OK genius. Here this should help with your emotional and mental equilibrium...





 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#127
Jul 18, 2017
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#127
JohnDB said:
Might be more believable IF CCP hadn't just sold Russia a WHOLE BUNCH of military drones a few hours before releasing this plan.
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Actually that was a very smart move. The subliminal message was "Either move to the negotiating table or face total defeat and the annexation of Ukraine". This foolishness has gone on for more than one year, and the American taxpayer has been robbed blind in the meantime. And does anyone really care about the poor ordinary Ukrainians and the devastation of their country? This is just a huge SCAM with Zelensky and Biden in collusion.
 
ZNP

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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#128
Nehemiah6 said:
Actually that was a very smart move. The subliminal message was "Either move to the negotiating table or face total defeat and the annexation of Ukraine". This foolishness has gone on for more than one year, and the American taxpayer has been robbed blind in the meantime. And does anyone really care about the poor ordinary Ukrainians and the devastation of their country? This is just a huge SCAM with Zelensky and Biden in collusion.
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I am completely disgusted with Zelensky giving orders to Americans and threatening us that either we support him or else.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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#129
ZNP said:
I am completely disgusted with Zelensky giving orders to Americans and threatening us that either we support him or else.
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Agreed. He is a serious MANIPULATOR and he is leading all Western politicians by the nose. He does not give a hoot about the devastation of his country. And then the stupid RINOs go to Kiev and bow down to him!
 
JohnDB

JohnDB

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Jan 16, 2021
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#132
So the Ukranians should just curl up and die right eh?

Those young enough should enlist as Conscripts into the army to conquer all of the EU.

That's all that matters when Republicans oppose Democrats....lives don't matter, right vs wrong doesn't matter, it all about the politics. That's what matters to some people.
 
ZNP

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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#133
JohnDB said:
So the Ukranians should just curl up and die right eh?

Those young enough should enlist as Conscripts into the army to conquer all of the EU.

That's all that matters when Republicans oppose Democrats....lives don't matter, right vs wrong doesn't matter, it all about the politics. That's what matters to some people.
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On the contrary no one is saying that you shouldn't go and fight. By all means, the airplanes fly everyday.
 
G

Gideon300

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Mar 18, 2021
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#135
Nehemiah6 said:
If Russia is the bad guy here, why has every Western leader SABOTAGED a negotiated peace settlement between Russia and Ukraine every time it has been presented, and talked incessantly about war, war, war, and WWIII? The warmongers are actually Biden and all the NATO members.

No matter what we think of the CCP, it is China that has presented a sensible plan to deal with the conflict. Here is what they have proposed:
China’s Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis
2023-02-24 09:00
1. Respecting the sovereignty of all countries. Universally recognized international law, including the purposes and principles of the United Nations Charter, must be strictly observed. The sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all countries must be effectively upheld. All countries, big or small, strong or weak, rich or poor, are equal members of the international community. All parties should jointly uphold the basic norms governing international relations and defend international fairness and justice. Equal and uniform application of international law should be promoted, while double standards must be rejected.
2. Abandoning the Cold War mentality. The security of a country should not be pursued at the expense of others. The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. The legitimate security interests and concerns of all countries must be taken seriously and addressed properly. There is no simple solution to a complex issue. All parties should, following the vision of common, comprehensive, cooperative and sustainable security and bearing in mind the long-term peace and stability of the world, help forge a balanced, effective and sustainable European security architecture. All parties should oppose the pursuit of one’s own security at the cost of others’ security, prevent bloc confrontation, and work together for peace and stability on the Eurasian Continent.
3. Ceasing hostilities. Conflict and war benefit no one. All parties must stay rational and exercise restraint, avoid fanning the flames and aggravating tensions, and prevent the crisis from deteriorating further or even spiraling out of control. All parties should support Russia and Ukraine in working in the same direction and resuming direct dialogue as quickly as possible, so as to gradually deescalate the situation and ultimately reach a comprehensive ceasefire.
4. Resuming peace talks. Dialogue and negotiation are the only viable solution to the Ukraine crisis. All efforts conducive to the peaceful settlement of the crisis must be encouraged and supported. The international community should stay committed to the right approach of promoting talks for peace, help parties to the conflict open the door to a political settlement as soon as possible, and create conditions and platforms for the resumption of negotiation. China will continue to play a constructive role in this regard.
5. Resolving the humanitarian crisis. All measures conducive to easing the humanitarian crisis must be encouraged and supported. Humanitarian operations should follow the principles of neutrality and impartiality, and humanitarian issues should not be politicized. The safety of civilians must be effectively protected, and humanitarian corridors should be set up for the evacuation of civilians from conflict zones. Efforts are needed to increase humanitarian assistance to relevant areas, improve humanitarian conditions, and provide rapid, safe and unimpeded humanitarian access, with a view to preventing a humanitarian crisis on a larger scale. The UN should be supported in playing a coordinating role in channeling humanitarian aid to conflict zones.
6. Protecting civilians and prisoners of war (POWs). Parties to the conflict should strictly abide by international humanitarian law, avoid attacking civilians or civilian facilities, protect women, children and other victims of the conflict, and respect the basic rights of POWs. China supports the exchange of POWs between Russia and Ukraine, and calls on all parties to create more favorable conditions for this purpose.
7. Keeping nuclear power plants safe. China opposes armed attacks against nuclear power plants or other peaceful nuclear facilities, and calls on all parties to comply with international law including the Convention on Nuclear Safety (CNS) and resolutely avoid man-made nuclear accidents. China supports the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in playing a constructive role in promoting the safety and security of peaceful nuclear facilities.
8. Reducing strategic risks. Nuclear weapons must not be used and nuclear wars must not be fought. The threat or use of nuclear weapons should be opposed. Nuclear proliferation must be prevented and nuclear crisis avoided. China opposes the research, development and use of chemical and biological weapons by any country under any circumstances.
9. Facilitating grain exports. All parties need to implement the Black Sea Grain Initiative signed by Russia, Türkiye, Ukraine and the UN fully and effectively in a balanced manner, and support the UN in playing an important role in this regard. The cooperation initiative on global food security proposed by China provides a feasible solution to the global food crisis.
10. Stopping unilateral sanctions. Unilateral sanctions and maximum pressure cannot solve the issue; they only create new problems. China opposes unilateral sanctions unauthorized by the UN Security Council. Relevant countries should stop abusing unilateral sanctions and “long-arm jurisdiction” against other countries, so as to do their share in deescalating the Ukraine crisis and create conditions for developing countries to grow their economies and better the lives of their people.
11. Keeping industrial and supply chains stable. All parties should earnestly maintain the existing world economic system and oppose using the world economy as a tool or weapon for political purposes. Joint efforts are needed to mitigate the spillovers of the crisis and prevent it from disrupting international cooperation in energy, finance, food trade and transportation and undermining the global economic recovery.
12. Promoting post-conflict reconstruction. The international community needs to take measures to support post-conflict reconstruction in conflict zones. China stands ready to provide assistance and play a constructive role in this endeavor.

Can any sane person object to any of this? At least in this particular case, China is the only country which has actually come up with something sane and sensible.
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There is nothing wrong with China's proposal and Zelensky has stated that he wants to visit China. I doubt Xi's motives.

I won't respond to every point as they are "motherhood" statements that are self evident to normal people. Putin is not normal.

Point 1. Sure. And this is exactly what Putin ignored in 2014, ignored 12 months ago and is ignoring now. If Putin had not invaded Ukraine, no one would be talking about Ukraine at all.

Point 6. Tell that to Putin. As has every other world leader since the war began.

Point 9. As far as I know, grain is still able to be shipped from Ukraine.

Point 10. Sanctions have long been used as a tool of international diplomacy. China does not like them because they want to rearm Russia without risking sanctions themselves. They are entirely self interested. I'm not saying sanctions work. Sanctions have done little to impede North Korea, Iran or Syria. They worked on South Africa. That's turned out so well, I don't think.

Point 11. Funny how globalisation is a good thing now that China promotes it. China depends on globalisation. The only thing that stops China from taking over SE Asia is the threat to trade. For the moment, China needs the world as much as the world needs China. If ever that equation changes, watch out. Australia is right in the firing line, so it is of much interest to me.

I do not understand the mentality that says the West has sabotaged negotiations. The only acceptable condition to Putin is for Ukraine to hand over the now occupied territory. No sovereign nation should be forced to do that. Do you imagine that Putin will be satisfied?
No. He will rebuild his forces and invade again. And again. And not just Ukraine. He wants to restore Russia to the former Soviet Union. Until someone stops him, he will keep on going.
 
cv5

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#137
Gideon300 said:
I do not understand the mentality that says the West has sabotaged negotiations.
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Well.....they definitely sabotaged the NS2. But yea....there is tons of print indicating that the US/EU/NATO and especially Britian only want escalation of hostilities and have scuttled every plea for peace negations.

The West has as many irons in this fire as do the Russians and Chinese. Maybe more.
 
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