Zionism among the Evangelicals is contradicted by Scripture

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IsaiahA

Active member
Jan 24, 2023
114
68
28
#1
They possessed ALL the land as promised:

"Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land that he swore to their ancestors that he would give them; and having taken possession of it, they settled there. And the LORD gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their ancestors; not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the LORD had given all their enemies into their hands. Not one of all the good promises that the LORD had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass." (Josh 21:43-45, NRSV)

"And you gave them kingdoms and peoples, and allotted to them every corner, so they took possession of the land of King Sihon of Heshbon and the land of King Og of Bashan. You multiplied their descendants like the stars of heaven, and brought them into the land that you had told their ancestors to enter and possess. So the descendants went in and possessed the land, and you subdued before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gave them into their hands, with their kings and the peoples of the land, to do with them as they pleased. And they captured fortress cities and a rich land, and took possession of houses filled with all sorts of goods, hewn cisterns, vineyards, olive orchards, and fruit trees in abundance; so they ate, and were filled and became fat, and delighted themselves in your great goodness." (Neh 9:22-25, NRSV)

They lost the land and kingdom due to disobedience:

"Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that produces the fruits of the kingdom. The one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.” (Matt 21:43-44, NRSV)

"So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy those tenants and give the vineyard to others.” When they heard this, they said, “Heaven forbid!” But he looked at them and said, “What then does this text mean: ‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone’?" (Luke 20:15-17, NRSV)

"Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him." (John 4:21-23, NRSV)

Many men of God in the past and present believed there was to be a mass conversion of Jews just prior to the second coming, Rom. 11:25ff. But in that passage there is no mention of .....

1. There is no mention of them going back to Palestine
2. There is no rebuilt temple in that passage
3. There are no thrones mentioned
4. Also no sacrifices mentioned as in a regression to the Old Covenant
5. Among the orthodox in the faith, the mass conversion of the Jews was seen to be to Christ and his church, not going back into Old Testament times in Palestine.

"Circumcision is nothing; uncircumcision is nothing; the only thing that counts is new creation! All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16, REB)

"Yet God forbid that I should boast about anything or anybody except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, which means that the world is a dead thing to me and I am a dead man to the world. But in Christ it is not circumcision or uncircumcision that counts but the power of new birth. To all who live by this principle, to the true Israel of God, may there be peace and mercy!"
(Gal 6:14-16 Phillips)
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,814
2,266
113
#2
They possessed ALL the land as promised:

"Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land that he swore to their ancestors that he would give them; and having taken possession of it, they settled there. And the LORD gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their ancestors; not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the LORD had given all their enemies into their hands. Not one of all the good promises that the LORD had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass." (Josh 21:43-45, NRSV)

"And you gave them kingdoms and peoples, and allotted to them every corner, so they took possession of the land of King Sihon of Heshbon and the land of King Og of Bashan. You multiplied their descendants like the stars of heaven, and brought them into the land that you had told their ancestors to enter and possess. So the descendants went in and possessed the land, and you subdued before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gave them into their hands, with their kings and the peoples of the land, to do with them as they pleased. And they captured fortress cities and a rich land, and took possession of houses filled with all sorts of goods, hewn cisterns, vineyards, olive orchards, and fruit trees in abundance; so they ate, and were filled and became fat, and delighted themselves in your great goodness." (Neh 9:22-25, NRSV)

They lost the land and kingdom due to disobedience:

"Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that produces the fruits of the kingdom. The one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.” (Matt 21:43-44, NRSV)

"So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy those tenants and give the vineyard to others.” When they heard this, they said, “Heaven forbid!” But he looked at them and said, “What then does this text mean: ‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone’?" (Luke 20:15-17, NRSV)

"Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him." (John 4:21-23, NRSV)

Many men of God in the past and present believed there was to be a mass conversion of Jews just prior to the second coming, Rom. 11:25ff. But in that passage there is no mention of .....

1. There is no mention of them going back to Palestine
2. There is no rebuilt temple in that passage
3. There are no thrones mentioned
4. Also no sacrifices mentioned as in a regression to the Old Covenant
5. Among the orthodox in the faith, the mass conversion of the Jews was seen to be to Christ and his church, not going back into Old Testament times in Palestine.

"Circumcision is nothing; uncircumcision is nothing; the only thing that counts is new creation! All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16, REB)

"Yet God forbid that I should boast about anything or anybody except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, which means that the world is a dead thing to me and I am a dead man to the world. But in Christ it is not circumcision or uncircumcision that counts but the power of new birth. To all who live by this principle, to the true Israel of God, may there be peace and mercy!"
(Gal 6:14-16 Phillips)


Well done, important truth, the church needs to wake up!!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#3
They possessed ALL the land as promised:
And they LOST all the land which was promised! They were in exile for about 2000 years.

And the little sliver of Palestine which is the present nation-state of Israel is not what God promised. So what's you point? That there will be no Greater Israel in the future? One does not have to be a Zionist to properly interpret Scripture. Neither does one have to buy into Replacement Theology (which is total nonsense). Why don't you carefully study the prophecy of Ezekiel and see that it has a future fulfillment. Then go to all the other prophecies from Genesis to Revelation which harmonize. Under Christ REDEEMED AND RESTORED ISRAEL will stretch from the Nile to the Euphrates as promised in Genesis 15.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,160
1,787
113
#4
The OP leaves out writings of the prophets about the people of Israel coming back to the land. There are different interpretation systems. Some interpretation systems allegorize passages as being about the church.... I suppose. I haven't been able to nail down individuals to explain the allegories of some of these passages, and I haven't read all the amil, post mil commentaries to see if someone came up with an interpretation for every such passage.

Paul doesn't say exactly when Israel will be restored in relation to the second coming. But Israel coming to faith in Christ and also living in the land of Israel are not mutually exclusive things.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#5
Isaiah 54:7-8 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Lets start here😊
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#6
How about here?

Isaiah 54:3, 5 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
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London
christianchat.com
#7
The very 1st statement is untrue, Israel is promised enlargement from Sinai to the Euphrates. Moreover they are promised ALL the land upon which their feet have trod during their 1st exile. Through Messiah [Christ, when they are turned to receive Him] they are promised the ends of the earth.

I do not say the scholarship behind the opening post is shoddy and poor, I say it is anti Jewish poison.

Paul is the greatest prophet in the bible, he says that their present partial blindness is temporary, he says although now they are cast away they will be received, now they are diminished but they will be accepted. Paul declares that ALL Israel will be saved.

They are enemies of the gospel for our sake but as touching ELECTION [which in the bible is everything] they are BELOVED. For the promises and gift of God are irrevocable.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,814
2,266
113
#9
the church needs to beware anti semitism.
Nothing posted in the OP is anti-semitic.

The modern day state of Isael can continue to exist but it is not a fulfillment of bible prophecy.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,423
6,701
113
#10
The OP leaves out writings of the prophets about the people of Israel coming back to the land. There are different interpretation systems. Some interpretation systems allegorize passages as being about the church.... I suppose. I haven't been able to nail down individuals to explain the allegories of some of these passages, and I haven't read all the amil, post mil commentaries to see if someone came up with an interpretation for every such passage.

Paul doesn't say exactly when Israel will be restored in relation to the second coming. But Israel coming to faith in Christ and also living in the land of Israel are not mutually exclusive things.
Israel , the one with the New Jerusalem in heaven awaiting to be brought down by our Father, is made up of all who believe God, that is who believe Elohim.
It will bhe established, not only in one day, but in and instant. It is the promised land of the true praisers of Yahweh, God, or Yahudim. That is to say, all true praisers of God, Yah.
It is notso difficult to understand from thhe Wor d when we recognize the translations of such words as Judah, Israel, etc.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
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London
christianchat.com
#11
Nothing posted in the OP is anti-semitic.

The modern day state of Isael can continue to exist but it is not a fulfillment of bible prophecy.
Let the Jews decide what is anti semite, just as the black man can decide what is racist.

... they say that this teaching in the church, which is Catholic is anti semite and I agree.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,423
6,701
113
#12
From Revealtion, beware of those who say they are Jews but are not. Rather they are an assembly of Satan.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,814
2,266
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#13
Let the Jews decide what is anti semite, just as the black man can decide what is racist.

... they say that this teaching in the church, which is Catholic is anti semite and I agree.

Well if this is benchmark for being a racist, disgreeing with someone's post should be considered racist as well, the poster can decide how racified they feel.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,998
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#14
To disagree with someone who is of a particular group is not racist. To disagree with a person because they are of a particular group probably is.
Examine your own heart.
 

Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
2,516
939
113
#16
The Jewish religion is antichrist .

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jn 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.


1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#17
To deny Israel their destiny promised to them by God is anti Jewish.
Not necessarily. To believe earnestly that the bible doesn't teach something isn't racist, it's just their understanding.
If someone is racist against Jews and is using this understanding, then yes.
Unless you are privy to their motivation, how would you know which is which?
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
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London
christianchat.com
#18
Not necessarily. To believe earnestly that the bible doesn't teach something isn't racist, it's just their understanding.
If someone is racist against Jews and is using this understanding, then yes.
Unless you are privy to their motivation, how would you know which is which?
This teaching

This has been the teaching that has been used to justify every persecution of the Jews these last 2, 000 years
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,132
2,164
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#19
How about here?

Isaiah 54:3, 5 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
The is written within a context of addressing the "O, barren woman" Israel who's Husband had at one time forsaken and prophetic of them (she and her Husband) bringing forth (a) seed (noun masculine singular construct according to the Morphology parts of speech guidance) that will inherit the gentiles... This is prophesy of Messiah.