Salvation by works

You have changed the subject wo which my post was addressing. Now you are agreeing we do good works after having received the Holy Spirit. Yes, you are right, but no one may say that we are not expected to act upon the gift of our faith, from the Father.

Faith without works is worthless, for it is no faith at all.

Yes, God gives us the freedom to make choices in how we want live our lives here on earth, but the problem with the natural man, before he has been quickened to the new spiritual life, will not choose to believe in spiritual things (1 Cor 2:14). Only those that have been born again have spiritual faith, that comes as a fruit of the Holy Spirit in the new birth, and will choose to follow God's commandments.

How do you think the scriptures say that God enables them? My belief, in harmony with the other scriptures, is that God enables us by quickening us to the new spiritual life.

What I am basing by belief on is that the natural man, before he has been quickened to the new spiritual life, is not in possession of the Holy Spirit, in which, faith is a fruit of, so he does not have faith in the things of the Spirit.

Let's make sure we keep the context of James...to the twelve tribes scattered abroad. This is not the church. The term "twelve tribes" is always a designation of the entire nation of Israel and never some called out group from the nation. From start to finish, twelve tribes is all of Israel, never the body of Christ.

Our faith is likened to gold, refined in the furnace of affliction for our ownsakes.

The parable of the talents of gold express best what I am attempting to convey to whomever will understand.

Believing and understanding are entirely different colored horses. And they might be even entirely different animals.

Can you explain, with scripture?

My mind is 88 years old, and not able to comprehend what you are trying to convey, without further explanation.

Which, as opposed to having faith, seems to be used interchangeably with (underlined)

Galatians 2
15We who are Jews by birth and not Gentile “sinners” 16know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 3
2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”



Romans 3
20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Romans 4
2If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God.

16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may rest on grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham.


Specifically, and not

Romans 4
2If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God.

In general. For example, are these of the law?

Luke 10
7Stay at the same house, eating and drinking whatever you are offered. For the worker is worthy of his wages. Do not move around from house to house.

8If you enter a town and they welcome you, eat whatever is set before you.

Matthew 19
8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hardness of heart; but it was not this way from the beginning. 9Now I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman, commits adultery.”


Which is interesting given how Jesus is considered by some to have been instructing people on how to not perish by observing the law.

Not works as James meant it, I apologize. "Works" as Paul meant in e.g. Romans 4.

Isaiah 48:10 ~ I have tested you in the furnace of affliction

I was talking to a schizophrenic woman this morning. She has great faith in Jesus Christ but doesn’t perform works because she is a recluse. She understands we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

To disobey is? What your only saved if you "obey"? Seems some do not truly understand "faith" and "works". As Sis said with out faith we can never please God. What is faith? Its the substance of things hopped for the evidence of things "not seen". Do you believe know have faith in Jesus? Ok where's the work? In this world nothing is free and you have to do something to get anything. Sometimes without noticing we treat God the same way. Today we can say context, its all of the word but when Christ said it there as only OT and sorry most didn't have a copy at home. And this mystery was not revealed until after Christ died and rose. So when He said John 3:!6-17 there was no IF or BUT.

OT anyone that calls on the name of the lord shall be saved. Nothing has changed for He never does. John 3:16-17 when He said it is simple and that easy. If were going to believe John 3:16-17 then do the same for Luke 11:13. It was only a few years later when Christ told them if you love me you will keep/obey my words. You do know you can believe He was who He said it was and not LOVE Him right? When He found me I didn't LOVE JESUS nope didn't even know Him yet I was saved. For me its not based on something I do or don't do other then simple believe He was who He said He was. Its a GIFT and if we know Him then we know He does it them back.

So faith the substance of things hopped for the evidence of things not seen, without works is dead. Its the "faith" its working you faith exercising your faith no one talks about.

I like how the AMP says it "For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God. not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]. For we are His workmanship [His own master work, a work of art], created in Christ Jesus [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, ready to be used] for good works, which God prepared [for us] beforehand [taking paths which He set], so that we would walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us].

Its the fellowship by reading praying talking listening and falling in love. So I keep HIs words .. that does not make me saved. We need to get over this. So much of this is milk and many should know this by now.. Its like you see this door before you. You had nothing to do with that door yet you must make the choice to go through. Once you do everything changes, your desires hopes on and on. You have a love a peace you never had before yet part of you still wants to do evil but now your free and all you want to do is please Him, keep His word. Theres no threat nothing you WANT TO do good things its in you yet again there is part of you that hats all this...hello old man

With all due respect, is not the circumcision of the heart part of the new birth? God exchanges the heart of stone of the natural man, for a heart of flesh in the quickening process.

With due respect, I believe that you are making up these stories up to see what response you can get.

My mind is 78 etc, the gold given to the good servants was put to work causing increase in the gift while that worthless servant hid his in the soil, and did nothing to cause its increase. So it is with the gift of faith given each of us by the father.

I agree with that. Do you agree with my original post?

John 20:
27Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!”
29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Can anyone have faith without believing or can anyone believe without having faith?
What is the case with Thomas?

The nuance between faith and belief is demonstrated in Thomas' lack of it until he saw evidence.

"Those who have not seen and yet have believed," believe with faith. So, if faith is the evidence of things not seen, then is belief the evidence of things seen?


Did Thomas not have any faith to begin with until Jesus showed him His hands? Or did he not believe until he could put his finger in Jesus side?
Regardless of what anyone might think the answer to that is, Thomas doubted until after he "saw," which the Greek offered "horao" is "often with metaphorical meanlng "with the mind." i.e. (spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).' HELPS word studies 3708)."

I'm not asking for the answer to these questions particularly, I'm just asking that you give them some thought before offering any rehearsed response. Afterall, rehearse dialogue sounds an awfully a lot like a script in a play and the root definition of a hypocrite is 'an actor on a stage."